Baller ForrestGump Posted February 13, 2012 Baller Share Posted February 13, 2012 ZO does NOT hit an exact time every pass, although it is 99.9% assured of hitting within .02. ZO's goal is to maintain a given speed, therefore the times work out to be within a very tight tolerance of actual. Not the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller colo_skier Posted February 13, 2012 Baller Share Posted February 13, 2012 @ShaneH, I agree that the goal of Z0 is a constant speed through the course that will result in an exact time. I think that is the goal of PP also. I was more wondering on how each of the engineering teams tackled the problem. They both have access to the same input information and have the same control ability. However as has been documented the resultant skiing experience prior to Z-box for PPSG was different. Could it just be the addition of acceleromoter information allows a much more accurate engine reaction and control ability? I seem to remember from long ago college days that acceleration is a second differential of distance or something like that. Maybe more integration's of different information curves allows a more accurate control of time through the course? Bottom line for me is, to the people that can tell the difference (not me I don't ski that good) do the 2 systems seem to ski the same now? ie Is it all in the math? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ RichardDoane Posted February 14, 2012 Baller_ Share Posted February 14, 2012 I have a tough time skiing behind PP Classic since having a ZO boat since 2010, the feeling of "free of the boat" just isn't there when I ski behind PP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted February 14, 2012 Administrators Share Posted February 14, 2012 @richarddoane you need to come to Newberry and ski behind the GhostSkier's old MC. Free balls... Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller usaski1 Posted February 14, 2012 Baller Share Posted February 14, 2012 no new reports from over the weekend? I know the weather wasn't good nationwide, but still thought I'd see something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thompjs Posted February 14, 2012 Baller Share Posted February 14, 2012 Shane, ZO does vary +/- at least 0.5mph or more every set of gates (as did PP). ZO is always trying to figure out how much throttle it needs to add or subtract to get the time at the next ball. Also note that 0.02 sec is an 1/800 or so error! Not much when you consider a 3000lb boat, prop slippage and pulling a skier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h2oski Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I think ZO is speed based, the times are reported based on where it thinks the bouys are. I have not experienced speed variances at the gates, once properly engaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller greghayes Posted February 14, 2012 Baller Share Posted February 14, 2012 usaski1 - here's my weekend report. I upgraded my 97 Nautique (already Stargazer-equipped) with no issues. It was an easy installation, course mapping worked out of the box and based on the beeps and times worked the first time. We started and stayed with the B2 setting and to me and my ski partner, consensus was that the pull felt very similar in feel to the ZO boats we have skied. From a driver's standpoint, we noticed additional engine revving during the pulls (just like ZO boats and consistent with the videos on this thread). As previously noted, this upgrade does not fix any of the set up issues that are well known for Stargazer. If the system engages too soon, SG hunts around for speed and you can be way off on speed through the gates. The net, net is that I am glad to have upgraded and believe it is a tremendous value (compared to the cost of upgrading to a ZO boat). I am sure this will better prepare me for skiing behind ZO boats, and it still drives just like a SG boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Marco Posted February 15, 2012 Baller Share Posted February 15, 2012 "If the system engages too soon, SG hunts around for speed and you can be way off on speed through the gates." This seems to be the opposite of what Ed O recommends. He writes that if it engages too late, it comes in hot and takes some time to settle down, and recommends using baseline #'s 300 RPM lower than actual to get it to engage early. Thats how I set mine up last week, but won't be able to test it for several more months. I'm new to Stargazer, so don't have personal experience regarding getting it dialed in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller A_B Posted February 15, 2012 Baller Share Posted February 15, 2012 Does ZBox allow you to slow boat times down like ZO in non-tourney mode? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller greghayes Posted February 15, 2012 Baller Share Posted February 15, 2012 Marco - Most people I have talked to have the SG issue described with short course set ups. I have the opposite problem, with a longer than average set up. In my experience if the system engages either too early or late, the outcome is a very inconsistent pull for the skier. I also notice that the problem is much worse at slower boat speeds. For me 34 and 36 mph are much more consistent, regardless of when the system engages. I plan to try Ed O's technique too - I have just been manually hacking it for a while and haven't bothered to really dial it in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Marco Posted February 15, 2012 Baller Share Posted February 15, 2012 Thanks for the clarification Greg. We have a short set up, so I'll start my season with lower baseline numbers and go from there. Regardless, it sounds like it is going to take quite a bit of effort to get it dialed in, but it beats having to buy a new boat to get a ZO type pull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
501Brandon Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 This weekend was the first time out (skin) with Z Box. I like it so far, I tried A1, B1, & C1... C1 tried to kill me, A1 no real comment one way or the other but B1 seemed to work well for me today. My question is for the rest of the guys with Z Box, have you tried to utilize the SG mode? I dont know if its lack of attention before but I seemed to hear a bit more RPM change even in SG mode than before I installed the Z Box... My times are good and it engages a lot cleaner than before. I didnt have much experience with ZO so I cant give an honest comparison but I can say there was with out doubt a difference between C and B/A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EF23 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I have mine close to dialed. A2 or C2 is what I like. the only dif between SG and the Z box is, I set mine at normal instead of X. I'm 205, 22-28 so far, and it's awesome now. The X is to stiff for now. I get 77 one ball now, as 75 on X. The lower setting is much more balanced through out, and it feels great! The SG was always fast, then a feeling of soft untill 3, then of to the races. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Hugh Nichols Posted March 19, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 19, 2012 I tried out my new Zbox this weekend at SkiTexas phase2. I pulled 1 good skier who ran in to -35 at 34.2. He said B2 felt like the B2 he was used to on a ZO boat. Looking forward to trying it again in a couple of weeks. Big thanks to Jim Thompson for all his help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thompjs Posted March 19, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 19, 2012 Throttle response to skier pulls seemed smooth. Times were not as close to actual as ZO, not sure if we need some other tweaks. 3-ball was typically 7.16. Our test skier changed from C1 to B2 and liked that much better and you could tell from his skiing that it was better for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dholtrop Posted March 25, 2012 Share Posted March 25, 2012 I had such a headache with Stargazer last year, I was excited to try out the Z Box to see if it would help. I couldn't get my mid-course times ironed out last year so I was also planning to try Ed's suggestions on reducing the baseline RPMs. I haven't had a skier behind the boat yet this year, but have spent considerable time tweaking the baseline numbers (34 and 36) so my all ball times are correct under "no skier, timing check" mode. To me, it feels as though the software has changed it's approach to the baseline number. The old version would target the correct speed and if you throttled up to fast, you'd overshoot it and it would hunt for the right speed, making your in course times a mess. The newest version seems to lock in well ahead of the target speed and slowly pickup speed until you're at the set speed. When I employ Ed's advice on lowering the baselines, I don't get to the right speed intime for the gate. Anyone else with the latest software experience this difference? I have the baselines tweaked to achieve a tolerance of + or - .01 seconds on each ball time and exact full course times every time. Should I consider this as good as it gets for speed control or should I keep tweaking? My thought is to get my no skier times as good as possible and then play with the other settings once I have a skier behind the boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Texas6 Posted March 25, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 25, 2012 I have played with the settings until I am blue in the face. I have lowered my baselines, throttles up quickly, throttled up slowly, switched to inverted, etc etc and I still can't dial in Stargazer. I either come into the gates hot, or I surge halfway down course?? I am now at the point of running in PP Classic mode instead of GPS and I swear it works twice as well. I feel like I wasted a lot of money making that switch. If z-Box makes this problem go away on a short setup, I would consider throwing another $400 at the problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dholtrop Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 When you call perfect pass with timing problems, their first question will be, is the boat / system capable of running actual times without a skier? That's the way the system is designed - it takes the preset baselines and makes adjustments for skier weight (0,1,&3 ball settings), crew weight, and now further adjustments on the fly given data from gps and an accelerometer. I would think making sure the boat is capable of running actuals without a skier could save some sanity when trying to get it to run actuals with one. @rico, I am interested in your comment about "should always run actuals without a skier, and definitely with ZBox." It sounds like you're aware of some changes made to the software, outside of the use of the accelerometer. That was the root of my question. What's changed that would make it more accurate, even without a skier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller usaski1 Posted March 26, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 26, 2012 I just noticed last night, that I'd been skiing in "Cal" mode in my stargazer... and not gps... my times were slow it seems... in Cal mode, you get no GPS signal support... so I'm thinking that basically I was just skiing in old perfect pass (pre starazer like) mode? What happens to the skier when they ski on Cal mode? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markchilcutt Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Any drive by wire guys that have made the upgrade to Z box SG from PP classic? I would like to hear your thoughts on the changes???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller lff Posted March 27, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 27, 2012 I finally got my SG tuned to a short setup. I just added the zbox and what a difference on my 03 Lxi w/335 Monsoon. It settles in immediately and the drop back adjustment it makes is pretty noticable, almost throws me forward a little. Best $400 I've spent on speed control yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Texas6 Posted March 27, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 27, 2012 @lff, did adding the z-box solve the short setup speed issue? So the boat and skier were coming into the gates and one hot before z-box, and after adding z-box they are no longer doing this? Please verify Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller lff Posted March 27, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 27, 2012 @Texas6 No, what I meant was - when I first got Stargazer I had the hot at the gates slow at ball 3 or slow at the gates and taking off after 3 ball syndromes. I finally got over that by marking the throttle arm about where 34+ was and pulling back just north of that after the beep. Also tweaked pre-gate, ball 1 and ball 3 and I mean tweaked. Way lower than what came default. Don't remember exact numbers but significantly lower. After zbox I have not done anything to adjust it. I'm pretty sure my tweaks are gone due to code upgrade(V8) but I haven't looked. Straight out of the box, zbox is much "nicer" to me. I'm kind of a big guy(6'3" 220) and when I got behind, SG felt like it was running away from me. I don't feel that at all with zbox and when I'm driving we're running right at 34.2 when skier is turning. We have a very short setup on one of the courses - barely 55 before the 55's so very little time for it to settle in. Performing the above actions got it to settle in right. Now with the zbox it settles in right and is easier to ski behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller usaski1 Posted March 28, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 28, 2012 Dang.. my times tonight with normal SG were all slow... I guess I need to run some baselines again... I thought the baselines were less important with the gps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Texas6 Posted March 28, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 28, 2012 Perfect @lff, much appreciated. Ordered Z-Box yesterday afternoon and am installing it on Thursday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markchilcutt Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Just ordered stargazer and Z Box for my 06 LXI!!!!! Cant wait to ski it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Texas6 Posted March 29, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 29, 2012 Installed Z-Box this evening. The upgrade from StarGazer to Z-Box was a 10 minute job, really easy. Ran a few weightless test passes and it timed out perfect every time and never over shot the speed at the gates & 1 or surged at 3 ball which is promising. Skiing a set early tomorrow morn and will report back in. 2003 TT 197 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldutskier Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 @Texas6, Please keep us updated. I have a blue '04 197 on the west end of the north lake. I have been thinking about doing the upgrade, but have yet to pull the trigger. - Bryant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Dirt Posted March 29, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 29, 2012 I just upgraded a 2000 MC ProStar 190 from classic to zbox. I had the same experience as texas6. It worked great right out of the box with no overshoot or 3 ball problems. it feels way different than classic. I dont have enough ZO experience to say how close it is. Times were between 16.94 and 16.97. I am impressed so far. I got it from Liquid Wrenches in Livermoore, CA. they are very experienced and have great pricing. I highly recommend them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Texas6 Posted March 29, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 29, 2012 Ran a long set this morning using Z-Box and it went really well. I used the B2 setting and it felt a good deal like ZO through the course to me. It didn't overshoot the gates at all and never surged like StarGazer did without Z-Box. The pull felt very consistent to me from behind the boat. Times were consistently good, either dead on or off by a hundredth of a second. I then drove for my ski buddy and could definitely feel and hear the contrast between Z-Box and PP Classic or Stargazer. After only one set, I'm glad I made the upgrade and definitely recommend it over StarGazer by itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller usaski1 Posted March 29, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 29, 2012 I haven't heard anything negative about the Z-box yet... Everyone comments on better times... looks like a win win... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markchilcutt Posted March 29, 2012 Share Posted March 29, 2012 I wasnt home to catch the Fed Ex guy today with my SG and Z box!! I didnt realize it was signature required delivery?! However i will be picking it up after work tomorrow at the fed ex shop near my house and hope to ski it tomorrow night??!!!!!! After skiing ZO for about 4 days in a row then going back to PP classic i decided the Z box should be worth while. I want to start getting into -35 soon and i feel ZO is easier to ski behind? i just hope i get close to that same pull with Z Box SG?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Texas6 Posted March 29, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 29, 2012 @markchilcutt, Its pretty darn close through the course. You will definitely notice the difference between the two around/prior to the 55's where ZO normally pulls really hard and then immediately levels off at the appropriate speed prior to your pull out. I actually like this with ZO because it settles in really nice at a very predictable time. Z-Box will still settle but not quite so obviously. But through the course, its a very nice pull and quite similar to ZO IMO. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller usaski1 Posted March 30, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 30, 2012 Not a Zbox Question, but a SG question: the "control settings" menu, (up + menu) I have a CR/CS value (but not both) and the value by default was about 1950. According to a manual I found on the PP website, I should have found both a CR and A CS value. The purpos of the CR value is to prevent speed over run I think. So I throttle up to about 2mph before it engages, and then takes some time to settle back in. I only found one value tonight, a singe value called CR/CS and one setting that said auto. I dropped the value down (It was at 1950) and brought it down to about 1750. Im not sure if it helped or not. Any insight on this? My main concern is its speed over run in wakeboard (I just said a bad word!) mode. My old 6.5 PP didnt exibit this over run issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markchilcutt Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 No time to install and ski it tonight just realized its my wifes B Day today so me thinks i will be spending tonight with her instead of slaying bouys!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller usaski1 Posted March 30, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 30, 2012 WTF!! Get your prioritys straight! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markchilcutt Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Oh dont get me wrong i am skiing this afternoon just wont have time to drag my boat to the lake and get it dialed in. Going to ski with buddys off of their boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Marco Posted March 30, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 30, 2012 Happy wife = Happy life... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markchilcutt Posted March 30, 2012 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Agreed Marco!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller usaski1 Posted March 30, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 30, 2012 yeah, I know... Im just jackin ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Hugh Nichols Posted March 30, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 30, 2012 For some, Happy Life=No Wife..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller usaski1 Posted March 30, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 30, 2012 Attempted to order Z-box.. kept getting PP's message machine today. :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller A_B Posted March 31, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 31, 2012 So has any hardcore ZO skiers tried ZB yet? I have a throttle GT40 that I have been contemplating selling. If this really works, I may keep her. Some of my buds that ski behind ZO and then jump behind my boat feel that PP leaves them hanging at the finish. They prefer not to ski behind PP now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller A_B Posted March 31, 2012 Baller Share Posted March 31, 2012 Is it throttle cable with PP? I am wondering if the DBW Stargazer setup will work the same on my cable PP system. Looks like a $1k upgrade for my boat. Just would be nice to know if it will really work. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markchilcutt Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 So i have 2 questions 1) does the Z box need be mounted on the underneath of my dash or can it be mounted on one of the side walls i have LXI walk thru not sure if i read the instructions correct? 2) i captured all my previous basline info and plugged it in. Do i still need to perform the open water speed calibration for each speed used ie 36, 34, 32, 28 19 21 23 etc etc ? Thanks, MC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryno Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 1) No you can mount it sideways on one of the side walls, you just need to make sure the arrow is aligned pointing toward the bow of the boat. 2) You just need to enter those baselines into Stargazer again, I didn't need to re-calibrate mine, as my old baselines were fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markchilcutt Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Thanks Ryno!! Sounds like i just need to map my course and run a pass or 2 with no skier and a no skier weight to verify a good time? When doing a no skier pass should i enter a crew weight? Or is crew weight no longer required running SG Z box? Then go skiing with skier weight Normal, XL, light or Feather no crew weight required? Thanks, MC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Texas6 Posted April 1, 2012 Baller Share Posted April 1, 2012 I would caution that with SG by itself I had lowered my baselines to try and prevent surging at the gates and one. With Z-Box however the boat would surge a bit from the 55's to the gate in an attempt to compensate for the low baselines and subsequent low boat speed. I raised my baselines back up to what thru were originally, problem solved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markchilcutt Posted April 1, 2012 Share Posted April 1, 2012 Texas6 is your boat using a throttle cable? MC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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