Leveraged pulling position

[KcSwerver]

Iv been doing dry land practice quite a bit lately and iv developed a leverage position that I like and I think will be effective, but here is the deal. Last year I did the same, worked on dry land to get my muscle memory in a good spot but I could never translate it to the water as much as I would have liked.. At all..

 

So what are your ideas on on efficiently translating dry land muscle training to the water.

 

Here are some pictures I took yesterday while I was working.

[Horton]

Let me start by saying that I do not know of any high end skier that spends any time leaning on a rope on shore. I think it is good if you are thinking about concepts. As far as muscle memory I think it is mostly or completely a waste of time.

 

You are not hurting anything and it that is what it takes to get you through the winter go for it.

[Horton]

So lets talk about your position in these images. In the second image - Your pelvis is very open, your back leg is bent and your front leg is straighter. At this point you have about ZERO power. See how your knees are parallel? At this point all your strength is in your back leg, your front leg is useless and you are locked in an weak position.

 

In the third image your hips are more logical but your knee bend is still way to uneven. You are trying to be centered but when you do this on the water you will end up back – back on the ski and that is BAD.

 

You need to either straighten your back leg (my personal solution) or drive your front ankle forward more like Terry Winter.

 

Back to why I think leaning on a pole is not getting you anywhere, the position you are in at the wake is mostly dependent on the position you were in at the exit to the previous turn.

 

[Horton]

@KcSwerver Please read the below link before you reply.

 

http://www.ballofspray.com/component/content/article/35-ballofspray-water-ski-news/54-basic-relaxed-position

[h2odawg79]

I believe there is a lot of benefits that can derived from executing dry land drills. More on this when I get chance to sit down and write...

 

But I will quickly say; it can be as beneficial as "Shadow Boxing" or working in front of a mirror for Dancers and a multitude of other examples, anyone in Martial Arts knows and practices the moves and the disciplinary aspects Religiously!

 

Not a good comparison; I really feel that what a "Shortliner" does and what he/she might teach are often 2 entirely different things, depending on the Skiers ability level. We're not talkin about trying to teach a shortliner how to leverage. Not to mention, there are very few shortliners who are not on the water more often then all the Joe Average skiers would be doing drills.

 

I'll try to find some time later to put something a little more useful on here

[JohnCox]

I watch other skiers....and look for that feel. This was CP on Saturday from 3-4 at 38. I'd like to have that kind of leverage. His transition from the turn in to this position was incredibly smooth. Helps me set goals...and, he's a pretty awesome coach, too.

[Skoot1123]

@kcSwerver - think about how your feet are angled when your on the water. They aren't flat. I would recommend a plate/block - something that would put your feet on an angle so it feels more like a ski in the water. Otherwise you are side loading your feet/ankle and that could end up hurting you more than helping you.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Wish]

@Kcswerver do the same on the water. Assuming your running buoys, use the course in a different way. Try to hold that position out to the side of the boat the length of the course staying outside the buoy line. Do this for both leverage/stacked directions. The better your stacked position, the wider you will get outside the buoy line and farther up the the boat you will find yourself. Challenge yourself by increasing boat speed or shortening the line with the drill. You will get a long controlled muscle memory understanding of that stacked position. Good luck. Have fun!!

[KcSwerver]

Thanks for the tips, ill try to be more balanced. I find it much easier to have better body alignment on my off side from the hips up but worse foot and leg placement. And the opposite for on side.

[KcSwerver]

@horton thanks for the link. That's good wording, I have never been around anyone besides my dad who knows anything about skiing so these articles and @johncox 's picture are invaluable to me.

[ral]

I agree with @Horton, good as a visualization tool not as a muscle memory thing.

 

For muscle memory, do the same thing on the boat side with a 28 off rope, and lean a full course staying out of the buoys. Need a reliable driver that keeps straight and does not move the boat towards the side you are leaning into.

[ForrestGump]

Look at where your front knee is in relation to your front heel. This is what I was going into in that other thread. Having that front knee behind the front heel just moves the weight distribution backwards. You might have hips up and shoulders back and be stacked over the knees. But you're stacked BACK and not stacked over the center of the ski. So you've either got to straighten the back leg a bit to get your stack over the center of the bindings. Or flex the front ankle and knee forward to do the same. There's a couple of ways to do it. You just have to find which one you are more comfortable with. Then go out and do like @ral suggested on the water. You'll know you've got it correctly when you feel the ski start to accelerate and keep up with the boat rather than trying to drag you back and inward.

[estrom]

@JohnCox, that pic is awesome - thanks! I have a few like that that I switch around as my screen pic.

[KcSwerver]

I guess I didn't really mean muscle memory. I'm more interested about becoming comfortable with the feeling and getting back into the groove before the season hits kansas.

 

Shane, excellent description ill Definitely work on this. Iv always read about being balanced over the ski and I got the impression that I was doing a fair job at it but if this is an accurate representation of my skiing maybe I'm not, and this will probably help me.

[Than_Bogan]

I agree with Horton except on one thing: I see high level skiers do rope-tied-to-pole drills all the time. Jamie spent hours with me one day holding a handle wrapped around a support beam to his deck.

 

I think you have to go back and forth. Out on the water, things happen too fast to learn something new. Back on land, things happen so slowly that you can't tell if your position is able to handle dynamic loads.

 

But if you learn the right things from each place, the improvement can be much more than either alone.

[Horton]

@Than_Bogan

 

We are talking Jamie. . :-) Was it admit concepts? Or muscle memory?

[Than_Bogan]

Definitely not muscle memory -- but maybe mental conditioning as far as what to be focusing on when. I don't think I'm parsing your first question.

 

But I did lots of muscle-memory-intended static drilling when I was trying to totally overhaul my terrible position. That's almost 20 years ago now, which is scary. But I still think there's a lot of value for an intermediate skier who needs to "start over" as far as balanced, leverage position. But, again, only if mixed with actual skiing.

[wilecoyote]

I was going to say you've got the wrong foot forward.

 

I've been doing the same thing, I keep a handle tied to the wall in my lab at work, but I've got a block set up so my feet can be on an angle closer to what it would be on the ski. I am a bit paranoid about having the rope break or the wall anchor let go and whacking my head. It would make a good news item when they find the body though.

 

My plan is to practice beside my boat this summer as I don't have a course, and then try to apply it on my days at the ski club.

 

I can't say how much the dry land can help, but I've pinned my hopes on it. When you consider you are only ever in that position for max 2 seconds at a time when you're running the course, it doesn't give one a lot of time to work on position. And when you consider I can't make it past 3 ball, that's only 6 seconds of practice per pass.

[Brady]

I have to say, I put a rope up in my garage and leaned on it all winter. My purpose was threefold: 1. I practiced being in a stacked position--my tendency was to lean back too far and this would help me be in a better position, 2. It greatly improved my strength. While you are only in this position for about 14 seconds through a set, I got to the point that I could hold that position for 2 minutes--the leaning position, not the straight position. I would go back and forth between the right and left side, and now that the season has started, I am much stronger and my grip has greatly improved. 16 deep water starts in a day on 250 pounds takes its toll. 3. In the frigid tundra known as Utah, It was the only damn thing I could work on during the winter and it made me happy thinking about what was to come.

[gregy]

It may not be much help for the high level skiers but but definitely helps a low ender like me. I practice the pulling position as well as practice kinda walking through the course and envisioning each phase of the course and where my body should be etc.

 

I never thought of it as a strength thing, although I see @brady s point. It's more to ingrain it into my head.

[BraceMaker]

I have a rope on my garage and one hanging from the rafters for "finger tip" conditioning. I just hang on that sucker in my old gloves.

 

Winter sucks.

[A_B]

Pulling on a handle on land is no new style deal. My ski partner in NY did it and started me on it back in the 80's. A basement pole is a good hookup. Do pull-ups on it and it will help in Spring like @brady said.

Crap, I forgot to do them this winter....

[Texas6]

@Brady, I like your post and agree there are some benefits to dry land pulling drills, some of which you described. I'll add that for some of us middle aged farts, pulling on a rope prior to skiing helps stretch all of the appropriate muscles and tendons prior to skiing and serves as a pre-set reminder of things we need to be focusing on once we hit the water. Tendinitis seems to appreciate the pre-set drill as well

[Horton]

@KcSwerver

When does your season start? I am working up an idea ... long distance coaching... sort of.

[Skoot1123]

When I was at ski paradise in Mexico, Gordon R would always use the pulling rope that was mounted at the palapa and get a stretch in before his set. He recommended that I use it to at least feel what that right position would feel like. (There was also a foot plate angled like a ski on edge). It certainly helps with getting the callouses started on your hands if you haven't been doing pull-ups all winter. While elite level skiers may not need it (or use it) as much as us low level skiers I still think there is some added benefit to getting in a proper leverage position on dry land. Proper application would then need to be taken to the lake so you could feel that position on the water. You can't replace the feeling of the water under your ski, but you can reinforce that proper leverage position. Besides, pulling on that rope in the garage is fun!!

[Horton]

@Skoot1123 what is am somewhat discouraging is the idea that spending hours per week on a handle on shore is going to change your skiing. That is lucky for @KcSwerver because what he was practicing is not what he wants to do on the water anyway.

[ForrestGump]

So the problem is exactly what @kcswerver found above. What he thought was a good leveraged position, was in fact bad. So he's been practicing bad position on dry land. It goes back to the old addage......... Practice does not make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect. I think that's one of the biggest problems I have with dry land technique. Unless you have someone to tell you you're doing it wrong, how does one know? Then you're practicing bad technique.

 

 

[Horton]

@ShaneH it confuses me when you are wise.

[ForrestGump]

@Horton I keep telling people that I'm much more than a pretty face.

[Brady]

@ShaneH If you ever step out of my boat, I will catch you before you fall.....just sayin

[BraceMaker]

One thing I've been working on the implementation of is "screwing" my feet into the ground. The concept that loading external rotation on the hips opens the hips up and gets your body into an athletic stance.

 

Get a flat rubber elastic band and do the thigh master externally - I think you'll find that strength there will REALLY increase your lower leg power (where as leg presses do not nearly solve it)

[Horton]

@BraceMaker No idea what the heck you are talking about. Start a new thread and explain so I can more clearly abuse you for a crazy idea

[BraceMaker]

http://www.mikereinold.com/wp-content/uploads/image_thumb7.png

 

It ain't crazy. I'm pretty sure I can locate a waterskiing specific reference by a well known waterski guru explaining the importance of external hip rotation in core stability and lower body strength.

[BraceMaker]

@Horton Boom... referenced.

http://ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/comment/91407

 

This is also something a PT worked with me on after a leg injury.

[MattP]

@Horton I don't think @BraceMaker understood the "Sart a new thread" sentence.

[BraceMaker]

Its relevent here @mattp

 

@horton mentioned knees and power getting hips externally rotated or screwed out into the ski opens the hips, gets them up. And engages the lower back.

 

All of which can be drilled on a handle

[ForrestGump]

Yeah, you lost me there.

[MattP]

Yeah ok.. You do that.

[Horton]

@BraceMaker This is not a new thread. You are not holding a handle and if you think that is the position you should be in through the wakes I want to see video of you skiing.

 

On the other hand it is sort of sexy

[mwetskier]

[h2odawg79]

@KcSwerver,

 

There is more then enuf contributions above to reinforce the credibility and effectiveness of dryland training. It is very common tool for teaching Pro's and it's benefits can reach into several areas... It seems that many people discount it with "Opinions" based on pure rationalizations and NOT any formal experience using it... Like AB said, it ain't a New thing...

 

People are funny, I know stubborn people who complained about forearm problems for years Skiing, but would not even try a radiused Handle. (even after lots of prompting) Then one day they actually tried one and it solved their problems! -You can lead a horse to water, but sometimes........... Yes, I advocate the use of Radiused Handles too!

 

I think you would benefit by putting your tie off point LOWER. I have one at about 27" above floor hgt. (Trailer hitch hgt is even better!) -yours is too high to be able to effectively get the Handle down to your thighs and get into a proper lean...

 

An angled foot platform would also help. BUT, remember you are only in your "Pull Position" for about 2 sec's while skiing. That means the angle of the Rope is changing every 10th of a second! So, I like to constantly move left to Rt. and Rt. to Lt. with my foot positions. That's one of the reasons I have not implemented an angled foot platform yet...

 

Rather then quitting the Dryland drills b/c of possible "Bad Form," I would simply continue to work on your form with a Camera, video or mirrors.

A combination of water and land work will be the Best! So, DO NOT QUIT after you start your season. Continue to work back and forth and you will learn exceedingly more about your positioning, which will benefit you both On & OFF the Water.

 

Like Shadow Boxing, the Batting Cage, the Driving Range or using mirrors, Etc... you are working on disciplines and techniques, consciously, unconscientiously and physically. Creating an active state of familiarity between the Mind and the Muscles. You are unconscientiously working and stretching your stabilizer muscles, your Joints and connective tissues and even conditioning the skin on your palms and fingers. So, work on achieving a good balance of good form and technique.

[Texas6]

Really shocked I didn't see a Panda in here somewhere

[MattP]

@h2odawg79

 

Can you please share who have effectively used "dry land training"? I can honestly say I have never seen it done, nor does anyone I ski with use it as a training method in the off season. I have also never heard of any pro coach recommend this to a student.

 

If you were to use video cameras and mirrors it is already to late, you have practiced something wrong. Unless you have someone to correct you immediately when you are doing it is still practicing the wrong position.

 

Handles have nothing to do with this, please stay on topic.

[Than_Bogan]

Maybe I'm a zillion years behind the times, but the surprise to me is that there is anyone who has been successful who *didn't* use static drills to help get the feel of a good pull position.

 

There's just so little time spent crossing the wake...

 

As a more advanced skier, this type of thing lowers in usefulness, I agree.

[KcSwerver]

@horton we are picking up our new to us boat this weekend, but I don't expect to be on the water untill mid may but I would like to hear more about your idea.

 

I really havnt been doing this type of thing that much. Maybe twice a month. My ideas were 1.) to build up some muscle (I have NONE) in my arms and core and tough my hands up a bit. And 2.) I wanted to get in my mind what pulling position is ideal, as I don't get very much water time.

 

 

[Horton]

@KcSwerver send me an email Horton @ ballofspray

 

 

[MarcusBrown]

Dryland drills are most effective when you have a superfriend.

 

A super friend is someone who supports you where you need it.....No, not what you're thinking....more along the lines of "Without a superfriend there to lean against or prop you up a bit, you would fall on your face if properly positioned"

 

From the moment you turn in for the gates, slalom is dynamic. Too much static dryland drilling will teach you just that: to be static. To lock and load. To not shift your center of mass. All of those things are bad.

 

Find a superfriend you can trust and move your mass in the direction you want to go. Thats a better way to dryland

[SkiJay]

A few contributers have said they don't know of any pro coach who promotes hanging off of a handle on the dock, but nearly all of them have an old handle tied up somewhere ... to use for a brief session of pre-ski stretching.

 

I did, however, see Chet Raley demonstrate a dry land handle drill, but it wasn't static pulling. It was all about dynamic movements.

[h2odawg79]

Thx @Skijay and @Than_Bogan for being bold enuf to speak up. (there are plenty of others who can shed light on this subject as well...)

 

@MattP, I can name names, but dragging Pro's into another no win situation for them would be really stupid on my part and TOTALLY unfair to them. But, in all fairness I could not care less what you do or have done. This not my fight! Do it or don't do it, I really do not care! Just prove me wrong or let it go....

 

P.S. Most of my drills are NOT static, hangin' around like raw Beef in a OLD Rocky movie. They are VERY Purposeful and DYNAMIC.

[MattP]

@h2odawg79

I do not see how talking about elite skiers training techniques would be stupid. Is that not what we are addressing here? We are discussing if they are useful. If you know of a skier has a practice that would improve skiing by dry land drill please tell.

Do you care to elaborate on your very purposeful an dynamic drills?