Not a whole lot of incentive

[ntx]

The 2013 numbers that @danbirch posted should not even be looked at. Some parts of the country are just starting the season. Kids are just getting out of school.

 

The trend we are seeing in the SCR is huge growth in the B/G 123 age groups. Most of that is from the kids of the baby boomers that have stayed in the sport. (M3/M6) If you look back 25 years ago, when you saw big numbers in M1. They are the M4/M5 skiers we have now.

10-12 years ago it was rare to see a B/G 123 skier at a tournament. Now we are seeing about 1/3 of the skiers in our tournaments are less than 18 years old. The large number of private sites that have been established for many years in the area has also helped get the kids in.

[rodltg2]

copied from another forum, really like how they handled it!

 

"Regretfully for some, the annual PCO has been downgraded from a Class C 3-event tournament to a Class F tournament due to lack of entries. This is the oldest continuously running water ski tournament in the Western US.

 

On the other hand, this is now sanctioned as a Class F (fun) tournament. We will be inviting guests to ski these events that may not have ever practiced on a course. Our entry fee will be discounted if you are not currently a USA Waterski member. A second attempt will be allowed for each slalom round. A USA Waterski "Grassroots" membership will be required, obtainable at the event."

[rodltg2]

The reason @ms your tournaments are full is probably because you only have 2 weeks of summer!

[lpskier]

@Than_Bogan You forgot to mention an additional big factor, at least for me: Four sets (practice and three rounds) in great conditions at a private site. It is worth the entry fee and a night or two in a tent to get away from public water for the weekend, particularly in July and August.

 

@Hacker You never told me beer was involved.

[disland]

Some folks just dont want to compete. We have several at our lake that are good skiers can run short lines. We have small local only tournaments with very low entry fee at their own lake. They just arent interested for various reasons. Its like jumping. Its not for everybody.

 

Hey no problem. Face it, 3 event waterskiing will never go main stream. If anything is going main stream its cable. But thats a whole other thread.

 

We just need to size the organization (awsa/usaws) appropriately. Just thank your lucky stars we have wake boarders buying $200K boats so that the big 3 can still afford to build boats for us.

[The_MS]

@rodltg I only ski a few events up here and they have lots of B/G 123 in them and they are 2-3 eventers . Motor homes roll in on Friday and the weekends are very fun. It got down to 29f last night on the north shore of Lake Superior so summer is still not here.

In my travels south to DFW, Florida and La, they are always full and have waiting lists.

[Not_The_Pug]

@rodltg did you go participate in the PCO class F tournament for fun to have a good time. It is always good to support other clubs in the area. The PCO is always a fun event and very relaxing. There are reasons that tournament is down in participation, and I think weather is the biggest reason, almost always windy there. The club does a great job making a fun/enjoyable weekend.

Also the Pleasant Oak tournament this weekend is almost full (47 skiers so far), so participation at that lake is good. And as you stated in the opening of this thread about skiing against all 38 off skiers, there are only 3 or 4 skiers that have an average of 38 off participating, so people shouldn't feel intimidated by skiing in a tournament. Also the club can set up the tournament different ways with a novice/never made group or they have done a grouping where all the 38 off skiers are group together to make the other divisions more competitive. Just idea's to help get others to an event.

[rodltg2]

@krlee. I didn't go to the PCO. Didn't know about till afterwards. Wish I did sounds like a great event.

[Than_Bogan]

@danbrich Thanks for collecting some stats!

 

I interpret these stats very differently than it seems you and others have. Firstly, the 2013 stats mean nothing yet, and should be ignored. In December, those may be interesting new data points.

 

Next let me select out what I'll dub the "growth" categories. You can't grow a sport with old people, so what I want to see are youngsters:

 

2005, M1, 239

2012, M1 258

UP (a little)

 

2005, M2, 254

2012, M2, 174

DOWN (a lot)

 

2005, W1, 141

2012, W1 145

UP (a little)

 

2005, W2 101

2012, W2 78

DOWN

 

2005, B3, 198

2012, B3 170

DOWN (a little)

 

2005, B2, 118

2012, B2 169

UP (a lot)

 

I'm not trying to stick my head in the sand and say La La La La, but the above stats are not especially indicative of a dying sport.

 

In my neck of the woods, there was a pretty darn obvious drawdown in the 90's, but since then there are more tournaments, with more participation at each, and a ton of new faces, especially young ones.

 

We can and should do better, but I think the doom and gloom is significantly overblown.

[danbirch]

@Than_Bogan Thank you for your analysis. I'm not trying to be "doom and gloom". I simply reported the statistics which came from awsa. (to be interpreted however you wanted) Unfortunately, 2013 ends in about 2 months, not December (for the water skiing year). So, that means that only NEW members will be added to the 2013 #'s that I reported (or new members who didn't ski in 2012, after nationals). A few have already been added. I sincerely hope ALOT of new members sign up to join AWSA very soon, or those #'s will be fairly accurate, and bad (imo).

 

You left out M4 and M3 in your analysis. It seems to me that those 2 categories were the #'s that were driving the scene, not the categories you mention. With over 700 in EACH of those categories, and now dwindling dramatically, the #'s don't appear to be replenishing, anywhere.

 

Again, Thanks for your input. It is good to think about this.

[Than_Bogan]

@danbirch I interpreted you later comments as negative. My apologies if I misunderstood. But anyhow, I was speaking generally.

 

I'm not following re 2013. Not one person in my club has entered a tournament in 2013, including me. But we'll all be doing our now-regular schedule, including at least 8 skiers (5 kids) who didn't ski a tournament in 2005.

 

I purposely left out M3 and M4, yes. That could indicate "survival" but it's not the future. As a 1971er, I happen to be in a big trough in the demographic wave -- every year I have been in a division, for 20 years, my rank slowly climbs until I rejoin the older folks. So there is a long-standing gap there, and it can be seen fairly easily in your stats, where M5 increases dramatically -- nearly double in fact!

 

So all in all, I think not much of anything is happening with us old guys, and why would it? But if young people are going to tournaments, that's the future.

[A_B]

It could also cycle up a little as more people trade up for ZO boats. I know 2 people who did not ski in tournaments for two seasons and now are back competing.

 

I have some other issues or I would be as well now that I am skiing behind ZO.

 

Wouldn't it be easy for the USAWS to send out a questionnaire to the dropouts to find out why they quit and what would it take to get them back? Sounds like a reasonable project to me.

[danbirch]

@Than_Bogan , you did enter a tournament in 2013. It was on 8/26/12, which counted as a 2013 tournament. That means that you have already been accounted for in the 2013 M3 statistics reported.

Also, the Later comment, "if history repeats itself", is something that many people believe in. I think we should use history to learn from, and by doing so, we can change it (if we act NOW).

[ToddL]

@danbirch - I kind of agree that watching older divisions is important since they are typically the officials running/offering tournaments. I wonder if we should consider prior time frame's M4/5/6 and comparing to current time frame's M3/4/6. The logic is that today's M3 will become next decade's M4. Thus, predicting what will happen in the next 10 years could be partly achieved by looking one group younger... Or something like that...

 

 

[danbirch]

@ToddL exactly. The AWSA chart only goes to 2005. It would be interesting to see if the 700+ M4 all came from the prior M3's, or just started at that age.

 

The reason that M5 grew, was that the M4 moved on (but not all of them). Some of the younger groups have around 100 members, NATIONWIDE. That's an average of 2 or 3 per State. Unless there is a real resergance of interest, I'm concerned with who will organize these events, or if it would even be worth it financially (considering the cost to run a tournament, and there are a fair amount of free entrants to run it).

 

I suppose that what the sport would need, would be for the younger kids of today (the wakeboarders) to jump ships (so to speak), and start slalom skiing. That would be awesome, but, I don't see it happening here. Hopefully, tomorrow.....

 

BTW, I applaud the AWSA's Junior Development Program! A step in a GREAT direction.

[Than_Bogan]

Aah, thanks. Now I get the 2013 stats. But I still think it's hard to say anything about them without having an apples to apples in one way or another: either the 2012 stats as of this same date or the final 2013 stats.

 

Cost may be a huge factor, and the north east has actually been doing quite well on a relative basis in the last decade or so, so that may be why things look fairly bright from my narrow vantage point.

[jcamp]

Collegiate skiing is the best thing going in the sport, in terms of growth. If we figure out how to keep all those kids skiing once they graduate, we'll have solved the problem for the most part.

[walleye]

@jcamp I ski at collegiate site and those kids once they leave college quit skiing. A couple have rejoined the club but never come out. It would be interesting to hear from these young adults why they stop. In the last 10 years out of 300 to 500 college skiers at our site I can count on 2 hands how many still ski.

 

 

[ToddL]

The transition from ski team dues, and team resources to individual costs/resources is a big jump for most people. Further, right out of college they are starting careers and families. Their attention is focused on getting their adult life established. Once that feels like it has some normal momentum, then they may come back to skiing.

 

If NCWSA could track alumni contact information through some alumni database, then make it available to USAWS/AWSA for communications, then we might be able to build a program where these skiers could be invited to return to involvement at the time in their lives when that is feasible. They likely have moved to different locations and don't have any network for skiing in their new homes. For example, image if email/mail lists of graduated NCWSA skiers were maintained and at +5, +10, & +15 years after graduation, they got an information packet about ski sites and clubs in their current city/area and in invitation to come hang out. Imagine if the local ski clubs/sites got a list of these former collegiate skiers and the clubs could offer a free ski set per month to welcome them back to the sport.

 

We always see a drop in numbers for M/W 1 and 2 age groups. We just need a way to welcome them back when they get their lives established, typically sometime around M/W 2 or 3.

[ToddL]

The program would have to include some incentive to cause former NCWSA skiers to want to keep their contact info fresh in this database... Need to work on ideas for that.

 

The program would have to require valid contact information be captured on current NCWSA skiers (if that is not already happening). Specifically, it could ask for parent/home addresses, too. We would not want to document a lot of dorm room addresses and university-based email addresses which we know would become invalid upon graduation...

 

[ToddL]

Maybe the incentive could be NCWSA skiers who return via the contact program would get a free year of USAWS active membership dues upon their return... Or something like that.

[walleye]

Bottom line Usawaterski & Mfg.'s has got to get slalom courses out there on public water. The state wildlife and parks are tough to deal with. But they are really feeling budget crunches right now. In Kansas we have a new director that has a more open mind to generating money. USAwaterski needs to start contacting park directors. In my area ED from EZ slalom has one lake he can put his course in and it is a city lake. In this small community they have q

 

[walleye]

uite a few skiers for that reason.

[walleye]

@Toddl Many of these kids I have remained friends and contact. Money is not the issue I hear. They choose going to the party lakes, vacations & spouse not interested.

[gator1]

@walleye is right. The elephant in the room in re balling is the lack of access to good water with a course on it. Wake boarders don't need it. The youngsters I have worked with end up moving away for jobs/school and have a hard time finding a site. All the rest of these two pages of conversation addresse minutia when compared to the problem of good water.

[ToddL]

@walleye - I assume that those same skiers only joined a college ski team for the lake parties, then, too? Were they in the top 3 slots on the A team scoring for team scores, or were they B team skiers? Did they learn how to trick or jump and really invest effort in improving their skill and ability in those events? Probably not. I'm just making an assumption, but I have seen many of those social-only-types of skiers on NCWSA ski teams.

 

There are a lot of NCWSA skiers who are just there to hang out on the water. Sure they may learn something from a more skilled team mate, but they are not there because they are driven to get to -28 off someday in a tournament. Those skiers are in NCWSA purely for the social aspect of the team during college.

 

When those skier graduate, they no longer ski because the time, effort, or costs to continue to participate as AWSA skiers is no longer valued enough to warrant continuation at a competitive level. They are not lost skiers for our sport because they never were really skiers in our sport.

[walleye]

@ToddL I assume that those same skiers only joined a college ski team for the lake parties, then, too? Some did but there were more that did it for various reasons, including being a better skier.

 

Were they in the top 3 slots on the A team scoring for team scores, or were they B team skiers?

A & B top slots to bottom.

 

 

Did they learn how to trick or jump and really invest effort in improving their skill and ability in those events? Yes they pretty much all 3 evented, I felt like they all tried to improve, some more than others.

 

Probably not. I'm just making an assumption, but I have seen many of those social-only-types of skiers on NCWSA ski team. I resemble that social type and 6ball was our worst:)

 

Just saying coarses on public water gives access to showing off to the chicks:) Also it is more spouse & kid friendly.

 

 

 

 

[ToddL]

@walleye - great answers. Sorry my assumptions were off the mark.

 

So you are saying that these skiers would still be active in the sport if there was a course on public water? Thus, you are saying the most significant barrier to staying engaged in our sport is the cost of access to a course? If not cost, then why does access to a course on a public lake work better than access to a course on a private lake with regards to retaining collegiate skiers?

[walleye]

@ToddL So you are saying that these skiers would still be active in the sport if there was a course on public water? Yes

 

Thus, you are saying the most significant barrier to staying engaged in our sport is the cost of access to a course? No

 

If not cost, then why does access to a course on a public lake work better than access to a course on a private lake with regards to retaining collegiate skiers?

 

1.Because there spouses do not want to hang out @ small ponds with slalom heads talking about skiing.

2. Public lakes is where lots of people can go. To visit a private site it usually requires AWSA membership or Housing development with greater restrictions. Grandma & Grandpa can set in the pontoon and watch sonny boy ski by, then they can go to the lake house for a cold one. Stud can take his heirom of chicks, show off skiing the course thru the many boats watching....just like the wake boarders do.

3. Public courses will attrack all kinds of people Good/Bad.....but numbers if that is what everyone is wanting. Out of the masses some will become slalom head....hence a AWSA member, ski equipment, boat etc.etc.

 

[rodltg2]

good points @walleye, my wife hates going to the ski lake. She rather watch grass grow, which is what she mostly does out there! However she enjoys going to public lakes.

[gator1]

@walleye: That's the point. Are numbers what everyone is wanting? Its kind of like that stupid bumper sticker "God, please grant me patience. Right NOW". "We want more skiers. BUT NOT ON MY WATER".

[gregy]

I wonder how much the economy has effected skiing. The other activity I'm involved in, Offroading, has really been effected over the past few years with gas prices and slow economy. A lot of people have sold there vehicles and gotten out of Offroading, good part of the folks that have stayed in it are not spending the money they used on there vehicles.

[ToddL]

OK, so @walleye raises a very different point that I have not really heard put that way before...

 

If I may paraphrase what I'm hearing...:

Money or Access to private lakes is not the only factor. Sometimes skiers have the money/ability to access private lakes, but can't convince the family/wife to go there.

Families/Wives are willing to spend the day at the public lake, not a private lake.

If slalom courses were on public lakes, more young men/women would start to ski buoys because they are more likely to spend time on a public lake vs. private lake.

 

Is that what you are saying?

 

The prior assumptions about public vs. private course access is surrounding the debate about cost factors or existing private lake skiers hoarding their water time from outsiders...

 

You are pointing out a different element: public lake time is more attractive to the whole family/wives even when the skier has access to both public and private lakes.

[crashman]

it seems like by the numbers that tournament skiing is a very small portion of the sport overall and tournament growth/contraction isn't necessarily indicative of the sport's overall growth/contraction. My club is full of guys like me- very passionate about the sport, spend a crapload of money on boats and equipment, yet haven't skied in a formal tournament. It's probably like tennis or golf where you have a few people that are driven to the most competitive aspect of the sport and many who find it more fun to ski in less structured settings. Back to @rodltg2 original thoughts I think there's some truth to it but that's like the guy who just enjoys playing tennis after work with his wife- there's no incentive for him to join the county tournament and that's ok. He still enjoys the sport, spends his money on equipment, follows the pros, gets his exercise. He doesn't diminish the sport by not participating in a formal competition, but he also doesn't join USA tennis because it's not a wise use of resources. I agree with the comments above about the benefits of tournaments and I'd like to ski one someday, but I don't feel like less of a skier because on Saturday I'll choose instead to head out to my local club, socialize with club members there instead of at a tournament, pull my kids and wife up and down the lake a few times, and ski 25 passes or until my arms fall off. Giving all that up is a tough sell when summer days are limited.

[The_MS]

@ToddL I hear what @walleye is saying and there may be a little bit behind it. Bikinis and beer. They want to ski but at the same time they want eye candy.

[gregy]

@crashman good point on the golf and tennis analogy. I know tons of golfers when rarely if ever play in a tournament if they do its something informal with Hooter girls at each green and lots of beer. Myself I'm into skiing more for exercise, fun and socializing.

[RichardDoane]

@rodltg - sounds like your wife needs a hobby so she's got something to do while you grab a few sets at the lake

[TeamWally]

What @Jody_Seal said. We have taken a relativity simple sport and overly complexified it : You get around the ball or don't. 5 judges for six balls, really. Rankings and ratings are in, fun events are out. I skied in 3 states the past 3 weeks and had an absolute ball. I really can't tell you who won in each state, some of the bottom seed guys were long gone when the top seeds ran. I am sure not every one runs into38 everytime but I really don't feel this sport is about being a good loser. If pain and agony build character I'll settle for the character I am. I do wonder who is going to be around to drive the boat, judge and organize tournemnts when I hit mens 7. Perhaps we might consider actual officials, like baseball, soccer and other Olympic sports where competitors aren't the event producers. This whiole sport is way too much fun to bail on, however the ship is taking on water. Time for some repairs.

[ForrestGump]

I was telling this very attractive young lady(with no prior knowledge) about skiing and what all was going into putting on a record tournament, like the Aquaplex Record that I'm taking the 200 too today. Her reply........."that sounds overly complicated."

 

Yep, I already know I'll never get her to a tournament.

[MISkier]

My family wouldn't mind going to a tournament if there was something to do (especially for the kids) other than watch 100% of the time. My son is autistic, so he can't just sit and watch. But, he loves the water/swimming and it is a great sensory thing for him. However, swimming into the course or even close to the boat path, starting dock, etc. is not allowed or recommended. The ultimate site would have a secondary area to the side with a beach and some other actvities.

 

Any kid, for that matter, will have a hard time sitting for a tournament. While skiing is the main focus, we need to remember that other family members may not be as obsessed as we are and need something else to occupy their time when they are not watching. If the families only know tournament skiing as the amount of time that you are away from them, they are not likely to pursue it either. Plus, watching some other kids in the tournament may catch their interest.

[Texas6]

@MIskier, I completely agree with your point. Add in 100+ degree temps and its a long day for those who don't have anything to do.

[danbirch]

@Texas6 ...not to mention the skin cancer...

 

But, seriously, as I see it, tournaments are basically for the elite. They WILL win, nearly everytime. The rest of us are skiing against ourselves, and strive to become better. The relationships you make are (or can be) very good, as long as you don't mind donating to the club, spending a day or 2 in the sun, and placing low. I do think, though, that it helps you to work on your skiing, and let's you see that it can be done!

[The_MS]

Man, you guys are going to the wrong events. Most places I am at have roped off swimming areas, private roads to bike on, tennis courts, basketball courts and even pools full of kids and adults. There are always tents and shade areas to sit under or bring one along. Getting into 38 and winning do not go hand in hand. I can run 38 but that will not "WIN" the tourney when Ski dawg gets 4@41 or a host of other big dawgs go deep into the short line. "WINNING" is hanging out and having fun with some very interesting people all day and then popping a few cold ones after its over and toss some stories around about the good ole days or the events of the day. Listening to @Shane tell girl friend stories is priceless. If your kids cant find a way to have fun, stay at home or go to the big lake. I am sure they find all kinds of ways to have fun sitting in the open bow of your SN200 all day on the lake. Get them skiing and show them the ins and outs of competing. Teach them how to get ready for a set and everything else that will get them in the skiing family and help grow the sport for the future. You are all talking about the future of the sport so understand that your kids are the future of the sport, so get them involved in skiing or stay home.

[Not_The_Pug]

One of the things I see is a lot of people that don't like tournaments are just not competitive people. Which is fine, like @Crashman said go out enjoy the lake experience, buy boats and equipment and have fun getting outdoors.

 

The competitive nature of our society is going away. I see it with families that have parents that are competitive and their kids are skiing tournaments or playing tennis, golf, baseball, ect. But I see a lot of people that have no interest in competitive sports no matter what the activity. And I have seen a lot of men get out of skiing or other sports because their wife has no interest in doing it or hanging out at the lake/event all day. You have to have that self drive to compete.

 

Most the College tournaments I have been to are more about the party and less about the skiing. As one school said on their T-Shirts "Our drinking team has a skiing problem".

[crashman]

I will add that spending the day at a ski site beats the pants off of spending the day at a soccer or baseball field. I'm not sure how we got to the point where it's normal for parents to spend every weekend during summer watching kids play ball but it's a problem for kids and wives to watch their pops lay it down a the lake a few weekends a year. I've established a strict "no summer weekend ball" policy at the crashman house. That's ski time for the entire family. Fortunately my wife is getting hooked on buoys and hopefully my boys do too.

[ToddL]

Baseball families do select/league ball/all-stars ball which includes a lot of all weekend long tournaments with 3 games on Sat and 2-3 games on Sun. Baseball to them is like water skiing is to us.

 

It used to be normal to see a group of people (family reunion, church group, a bunch of neighborhood kids) playing a informal game of baseball on some park grounds or public field. Now, we don't see that as much any more. It seems most city park fields have locks on them and only leagues have access...

 

Bowling used to be pretty common, but public lane access is down due to league time...

 

I see a lot of people playing washers/horse shoes/beanbag toss types of games at parks gatherings and camp outs. Maybe those activities need an international governing body to regulate the rules and make official competitions for those sports, too... OK, that was kind of harsh... but it makes one wonder the impact...

 

Seems some level of success in a sport can result in some level of reduced informal access to the sport as a consequence.

[rodltg2]

Should really add Hot Dogging as an event

 

[Texas6]

The still frame of this "hotdogger" sliding on his side down the lake is slowly evolving into a secondary Panda of sorts for me