shorten at lower speed rule change proposal

[eleeski]

AWSA Rules Amendment Request Form

In order to request that the rules be amended you must be a U.S. Citizen and a current member of USA Water Ski with AWSA listed as

your primary sports division. This form must be submitted in electronic format to the Chairman of the Rules Committee by August 31st

to be considered for the upcoming year.

Member Name: _Eric Lee_____________________________________

USAWS Member Number___200008363___________________________

Age Division_M5_______(ex. B1)

U.S. Citizen?_Y___ yes _____ no

AWSA primary sports division? _Y___yes ____no

Rule number to change?__10.06 E) 3) b) ____ (ex. 1.08)

Suggested wording:

Delete all existing wording and replace with:

Any skier may elect to lower the maximum speed for the division. The score shall reflect credit only for the speeds successfully completed and the line lengths successfully completed. Upon requesting no further speed increases and opting for shortening instead, the skier must remain at that speed for the rest of that round.

For example, a M5 skier who informs the officials that 52K will be his maximum speed and completes a pass at 52K (32mph) and 16M (22 off) will score 72 buoys, credit for all passes below 52K (60 buoys) and credit for the two line shortenings to 16M (12 buoys) (60 + 12 = 72). His score will improve by 6 buoys for every subsequent pass as the rope is shortened. He is not allowed to increase the speed during that session.

 

 

Reason: Each speed increment substantially increases the energy involved in slalom – and the potential for injury. Age and injury can increase the risks of injury as well. Allowing a skier who may be at risk to reduce that risk with slower maximum speeds may allow that skier to continue to compete and enjoy participating in tournaments.

 

 

Background: Why should a skier not get credit for everything – speed and line length - that the skier successfully completes? With our competent scorers and robust programs there should be no problem implementing this policy. Trickers are allowed to choose easier runs and have the potential to score all the tricks they perform. Jumps can choose slower and lower parameters and still score what they do. Slalom is forced into a potentially risky speed with significant penalties for not accepting that added speed risk. It is specifically harmful to the skiers whose skills are developing – the top skiers will not be affected at all by such a policy.

 

[RichardDoane]

@eleeski - I'm thinking, "why?" but if the end result is more skiers having fun, then I'm in

[ToddL]

@MattL and I just worked through a fun example to test this out...

 

He asked, what if he set a max speed of 19 mph and skied into -41? So we had fun figuring it out.

 

At 19 LL, he accumulates 18 buoys, then

-15, -22, -28, -32, -35, -38, -39. That's 7 passes x 6 for 42 more buoys, running total of 60.

If he then got 3 @ -41, total score would be 63 buoys.

 

So, now we asked, under the current rules what would it take for him to score 63 buoys?

15, 17, 19, 21, 23, 25, 27, 28, 30, 32 @ LL = 10 passes or 60 buoys. So, 3@34 would get him to 63.

 

I asked him which of those two methods he thinks he's more likely to get a better score with. He said the normal one...

[tbrenchley]

You say the reason for this proposed change is: "Reason: Each speed increment substantially increases the energy involved in slalom – and the potential for injury." But wouldn't that also be true for the shortening of the rope? Pretty sure running 35 off at a slower speed than max (for example 24.9 mph) requires much more energy and most likely increases the chance of injury by taking hits higher on the boat. Just my thoughts, not sure I'm correct or not.

[Drago]

Has merit. I'm thinking of kids more .

[ALPJr]

I like this. Good for tourneys up through C imo.

[addkerr]

I like. At a tourney where the conditions are rough I would drop to 34.2 mph from 36 mph. Makes it more fun, and I would be more encouraged to compete in less than ideal conditions. I always find it more fun running into 38' at 34 than 35' at 36.

[bdougherty]

I like that idea, especially for skiers not interested in competing for a national ranking but just for the enjoyment of skiing a tournament. Had a similar case at a tourney in which we were using handicapped scoring. A men's 5 skier elected to only ski 32 mph, this was done to limit potentional injury after a serious injury. We scored him as a 32mph skier for our purposes but his score turned into USA waterski was reflected as long line 32mph. In my opinion since he elected to ski a speed lower than his division he really has no place in 99% of all sanctioned tournaments. Why would he ski? For the fun maybe but he can do that at home (lives at one of the nicest sites in the world with many very accomplished skiers). Grassroots may be but he is not a grassroots skier. Just an example of how loosening the rules a bit may result in more tournament participation.

[RazorRoss3]

I think the idea has it's merits but I'm not sure it would be used except by skiers who just entered B2, G2 or B3, G3 where the speed has just gone up but they may not be comfortable at it yet and ski at a slower speed to try and compete that way. I think that poses a potential problem in that a skier just into the next age group up remaining 1 speed below their competition my be unfair since running the same line length only creates a 6 buoy difference. I'm not saying 34 over 36 or 32 over 34 makes it so much easier that you can outscore someone a speed ahead of you by a full pass but if it happened I think that person would feel cheated since they did what they were supposed to due and moved into the next speed bracket and in return got beat out by someone who didn't want to ski full speed.

 

Long story short I think in the one speed down from max situation there are some problems that could occur unless the slower speed has an additional penalty to further distance a skier going below max speed from the skiers who are skiing the max speed of their age group.

[gregy]

@razorross3 and @mattp After reading the thread of what Krista should do and reference to college involvement I was thought of this same thing. You have folks on college teams that have never ran a course before expecting to get up to 36mph men or 34mph women. What do you guys think. I was into my third year at college before I could consistly make 15off 36. Don't they already let college skiers use wakeboards?

[Than_Bogan]

I like all this outside-the-box thinking. I'm not sure I'm totally on board with this one yet, but it does seem to be true that this would almost never be a scoring advantage for the top skiers, because, just as an example, I'm pretty sure 32/-38 is harder than 34/-35. And the 19mph example is especially funny.

[Chef23]

This is an interesting idea. We have a friend with some concussion issues and he has been skiing slower speeds at tournaments all year. He generally will go out at 30/22 and run up to 34/22 then run a gate and 1 ball at 36 or ride back in. One class C event they let him go out and run down the rope at 30 mph and he ran 35 off. I was in the boat and I was never worried about him taking a big hit at 30 like I would have been at 36/28 or 32. I know I have skied wide ride events at 30 and it feels much safer than 34 and certainly much easier.

 

I do think things that get more skiers to tournaments are all good. I am not competitive even on a regional basis but I love to challenge myself in a tournament. If someone wanted to ski in my division at 32 mph and go down the rope I would be okay with it as long as there was a way to balance off the scores fairly.

[Than_Bogan]

Thought about this just a little, and came up with one concern:

 

Might this discourage folks from ever learning their top speed? At the longer line lengths, the speed is usually a bigger factor than the rope length. If I think back to when I completed 34/-15 and had to move on to 35/-16, I am pretty certain I could have score more buoys by going to 34/-22 instead. This would probably continue to be true through the -28 to -32 range.

 

Maybe this isn't a problem at all? Maybe it makes sense to run 34/-32 before trying the demon that is 36?

 

But anyhow I'm just looking for unexpected impacts, and I think perhaps I found one.

[Chef23]

@Than_Bogan part of the incentive to get to top speed is getting the extra 6 buoys when you get there. When you run say 34/15 in Mens 4 the skier gets credit for 34 long line also. By opting to ski a slower speed shorter line you would never pick that up and it would be impossible to be competitive with a skier who can run to max speed. For example if a skier ran 1 @ 30/28 off a skier that ran 1@ 34/22 would beat that skier because they ran 32/15, 34/15 and credit for 34/LL.

 

At least I think that is the way it would sort out.

[Than_Bogan]

@Chef23 Interesting thought. @eleeski Is that what you meant? I was assuming credit for LL as usual, but actually now I'm not quite seeing how that would work!

 

With a 6 buoy "extra" penalty, this proposal seems very "safe" -- but perhaps then doesn't meet its intent?

[MillerTime38]

I agree with @Tbrenchley, the argument that it will make skiing safer is crazy. Skiing 36/22 is not any "safer" than skiing 34/28

[Chef23]

@MillerTime38 I would argue that skiing 34/28 is safer than skiing 36/22. I am not sure if that is what @Tbrenchley was saying but that is my perspective. I know that 30/32 off feels much safer to me than 34/22. I don't ski 36 so I can't comment on that.

[mwetskier]

cant find it right now but theres a you tube video of a guy running thru 41 off on a trick at trick skiing speed so the concept of competing in a slalom tourney at 19 mph is not impossible.

[Chef23]

@mwetskier if it happened it was not an official score it would have been something that the local tournament committee allowed and it wasn't scored.

[ScarletArrow]

I love this idea and proposed it another thread here...

 

http://ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/comment/127296

 

Let the skier shorten the rope at any speed they want and score it accordingly.

 

In our last Buckeye Buoy Tour, the finals (not counted toward AWSA scoring) forced everyone to ski one speed below their max.

 

Almost everyone skied a line length shorter than what they normally do - which is where the real fun in skiing.

 

I would take this idea a step further and change the speed increments to 1mph each.

 

We talk about wanting to change the gate rule b/c a skier can go to a tournament and get their gate pulled on their opener (an uncommon and worst case scenario) and be done.

 

Think about the more common scenario where someone is not "feeling it" on their first couple passes and goes down early.

 

These proposed rule changes allows skiers to ski more, which means more fun, without changing the integrity of the scoring system already in place.

 

If I ski 15 off at 32mph, then 33, then 34mph my score is no different than under the current system.

[mwetskier]

@chef23 -not a tourney think it was just for fun but the point is it can be done and might be ok within the proposed rule change. dont know how many points running 41 off at 19 mph would be but its cool to watch for sure.

[footloose42]

@gregy collegiate skiers can ski all the way down to 19.3 mph.

[ntx]

@mwetskier. Most upper level trick skiers can do it. I don't want to be the driver and have to see boat path video. It is VERY hard to drive. Lets really trick it up and if you can do it at 19.3 MPH with a flip between each buoy..........I think @MAD has video of that

[wski1831]

Interesting proposal. Maybe try it out in a tournament with a classF sanction.

[gregoryhcain]

Five years ago I had to have neck surgery. I had compression of three disks on C5,6 and 7 nerve roots and my spinal cord. I was in terrible pain, lost motor power and balance. I was unsure if I would ever ski again. However, with the help of an excellent spine surgeon, persisence and learning how to ski with a cervical collar I returned to the sport one year after a three level fusion. I am a sports medicine physician myself with a background in engineering and math prior to medical school. I ran calculations of the energy forces at the various speeds and line lengths out of interest. It turns out that a 2mph increment in speed almost exactly compensates for the line off at nearly every increment up to 38off. The calculations become much more difficult when the line is shorter than the distance to the buoy so I had to approximate 38off as the distance to the buoy. For my own story I found it very difficult after my surgery and kind of scary to ski at 34 with a neck brace; I did not have the freedome of movement or vision to stay in control. At 34 I can only do about 4 buoys at 22 off on a good day. However, at 32 I comfortably run 22 off and get about 4 at 28 off. At 30mph I can run 28 off and get a couple at 32 off. I feel much more stable and secure at the slower speeds when my neck is constrained in a brace. When you are locked in at a shorter line you cross the wake more perpendicular to the boat bath with a lower wake. It is a much more stable feel. At 34, 15 off I always felt I was one tic from disaster. I dropped out of tournaments because I was not able to ski at a slower speed to line off. I did enter some novice tournaments in the INT league but I really did not enjoy riding a "fat ski" as much as a regular ski so I dropped that too. Right now I ski for fun and exercise. With a rule change like the one proposed I might venture back into the tournament scene. I would love to try and see how far down the rope I could go at 32 or 30mph. For my saftey I made a vow to myself and my family I will not go 34 again. I hope this proposal is given serious consideration.

[Greg Banish]

This change _might_ tempt me to actually show up at a tournament. I'm still on the steep part of the learning curve for slalom. I'm old enough that my speed would be 34mph, but even getting -15/32 is challenging for me. Strangely enough, I've run a complete pass at -28/30mph this year. But showing up at a tournament only to stuff an opening 32mph or 34mph pass and be done for the day does not excite me. I have no problem if someone outscores me by running a slightly longer line at faster speed, but knowing that I currently get pretty much no score until I hit 34mph keeps me at home.

[ForrestGump]

I know of a few skiers who would show up at tournaments if they could start shortening the rope at slower speeds.

 

With the Windows scoring now, it wouldn't be difficult to do.

[colo_skier]

@eficalibrator You make exactly the point that I made in another thread. Until this summer when I brought it up on BOS I had no idea that you could even do any passes at a slower speed in a tournament. I have spent a lot of sets trying to get to the magic 34MPH pass at -15 off. I still am not there. However I have been able to get to 4 ball at 28off at 32 MPH. Being that this is were I am at ski wise the whole tournament thing for me is non event. If it was generally known that people at my ability could compete against each other versus been dumped at the1 ball at 34 MPH then there may be a little more incentive to go to tourneys. I like you have no issue with someone who skis the max speed for the age group getting more points and beating me even if I ski a shorter line length but at a slower speed. I would like to compete at what I can do not quickly prove what I cannot do. I wonder how many others would be more interested in tourneys if this rule change was implemented and publicized?

[colo_skier]

@OB I have only been skiing since 2008 but had no idea that I could do this in tournaments until I asked on BOS. The point is I like @ShaneH think more people would be interested in doing a tourny if this fact was better publicized. If their view of a tourney was "I have to ski at the max speed" and I am not confident I could make a pass then why would I want to pay money waste a day/weekend when I can just as easily ski the day/weekend were I ski now. If I instead thought I could get a few passes in at a different lake and meet other skiers without embarrassing myself to much I would be more inclined to participate. Just pointing out how I saw/see the tournament scene. Sorry to get off the main thread here. I do like the rule change if it encourages more involvement.

[gregoryhcain]

One other area where this rule change would be valuable is the Boys 2 to Boys 3 transition. The late maturing early teen boys do not handle the 36mph jump with little meat on their bones. I have seen some real crazy crashes and lots of frustration watching them struggle at something their spindly bodies cannot handle. Another year at 34 is sometimes all that is needed. What a difference a year makes. They go from Vienna Choir boys to Bad A__ Dudes able to tame the forces of 36mph.

[Drago]

And b1-b2....they could ski 32 for a year like they should ;)

[BraceMaker]

I prefer watching folks shorten the line to watching them increase speeds bit by bit.

[ral]

I do not think this would be good for attracting spectators. Not that we have too many now...

[gregy]

I think it would good for attracting more participants.

[eleeski]

Slalomed for the first time since June (the trick run at Regionals doesn't really count). Hip may be cleared by the doctor but it's still a bit sore. Ran a pass at 30mph 15off. Kinda fun but I felt the hip. Too scared to up the speed so I tried 22off. Things were a bit weird (it feels quite different that slow) and I fell. Not enough energy to light up the hip. Skiing slow was good for my health!

Eric

[escmanaze]

I love this idea. I was actually disappointed a few years ago to see that the rules were set up the way they were, as I knew right away, it would probably be years, and years, if ever, I would want to participate in such a tournament. I wouldn't even mind if we played it like golf, and added an extra "penalty stroke" or two, even in addition to the 6 already naturally in place, to the slow speed score, just to make sure that the faster skier doesn't feel cheated.

 

I'm 32 years old right now, and skiing 30 mph -15 consistently. I'm loving it and having so much fun. If I can get to running 34 mph at -15 in the next year or two, my next step will be -22, not 36 mph simply because I don't want to ski at 36 mph...ever. I ski for the fun and the exercise of it, and I'm just not interested in jetting myself across the water that darn fast.

 

Anyway, I love the idea, and I would say it would significantly increase my chances of showing up to a tournament if this rule were implemented.

[Drago]

@ral then why do so many watch, post, and buy the equipment the Big Dawgs are using instead of Open skiers?

[GK]

I love it. The only thing that I would add is to make the top speed for every division 36 mph. Let people determine what speed is best for them and have it!

[colo_skier]

@OB Sorry my last post didn't come across the way I wanted it to. Maybe if I put it this way. I didn't go to tournaments because I thought that I had to be able to ski at the speed (34 MPH in my age group) to even enter. This may have been due to my ignorance of the system but I am pretty sure that I am not the only one under this false sense of what the minimum to enter a tournament is. I talked to a few people that did ski tournaments and this notion of being able to go slower never came up. The embarrassment (in my mind) point was more along the lines of "I'm a train wreck at 34 MPH and should stay out of the tournament scene until I can at least run 34". There seem to be enough barriers to participation and this may be a small point but for me it was an important one. BTW I skied at a few different lakes around the US and Mexico and all of the gracious hosts will tell you that given the way I ski I certainly am not worried about impressing anybody.

[ral]

@Drago, what I am saying is that it would be confusing to have two guys running the same line length on the same category with different speeds.

[Drago]

True @ ral