Why tournament scores matter and or how everyone runs 38 on the web

[bishop8950]

@Than I think your description matches the experience of most tournament skiers I see. Have fun, normally miss expectations, but keep coming back. I think we come back because of the high we get when we do meet or exceed our expectations. That one time makes up for the previous 10 and keeps us motivated. We probably represent a small portion of the population as freaks who think its fun.

 

I (and likely you) totally respect those that don't feel this way and are happy not skiing tournaments. My life would be more simple if I fit that mold.

[estrom]

No worries @Horton. As someone who has never been in a tournament and rarely even gets on a course, I find this site very helpful and enjoyable. My regular ski friends and I are always trying to help each other improve our skiing, even if it is open water skiing. We don't have buoys to measure against, but we're a group of pretty good skiers and can help each other out with technique/form.

 

I liken it to golf a little bit and this is where I completely disagree with @Avon. I will usually post a score of 80+/- on a typical day of golf. That's playing the ball down, counting penalty strokes, etc... My playing partners often request help with their swing and I am happy to oblige, but according to @Avon, I should keep my trap shut since I don't play many golf tournaments either.

[webbdawg99]

The ironic thing is the guys that are boasting about their practice scores are the same guys that ski tournaments.

[AKShortline]

On my recent trip to Nationals (missed gates at -32 so scored a full pass at -28, but let's move on) I ran my first "practice -38" . It was straight up the rope, on a legit course, behind a 200 with a legit driver! Have been getting only a couple at this purple monster for several years so I was really stoked.

 

Too bad it doesn't "count". I thought I liked you @Horton.

 

Ha.

 

Never mind I'm still stoked.

[A_B]

It must have been about 10-12 years ago, but ran 38 a couple times on my old 9100. It was in practice at my lake (which by the way, is not an easy lake to ski) and behind Perfect Pass. I am counting them anyway as my PB! I am old and don't care. :O

[Horton]

Sort of off topic but not really.

 

I have tried a number of times and in a number of ways to make it so users could know each other’s skiing level.  (So far these attempts have all failed.)  It seems like skiers at lower levels should want information from higher level skiers. When a skier like @bishop8950 says something I am apt to read it twice and think about it because I know he runs a lot more balls than I do. When a 22 off skier asks a question I would expect them to give serious consideration to the advice of a 32 off skier over a 15 off skier.

 

The easiest way to know a skiers level is from tournament scores. I know that ball count does not always equal knowledge but generally I know more than a guy working to run 35 or less and anyone who gets past 3 at 39 knows a hell of a lot more than I do. I know a few kick ass skiers who do not have USAWS scores and I listen to them because I know that they know what they are talking about. The difference is I know who they are.

 

For all the guys that do not ski tournament this idea does not work at all. I get it. I see the anger. Everyone without a score is pissed that their comments seem to be downgraded. Turn it around and imagine you just need a good answer.  Do you need to know who is giving you advice or not? I started this forum because I wanted advice for skiers who know more than me. (note: no one has to enter a high score or USAWS # so don’t flip out. I like the idea but I cannot make anyone do it.)

 

For some reason some readers feel this is discrimination or elitism but it is really about knowing the validity of the advice you are reading. Every time I try to make this happen a bunch of members get super upset. I just wish those guys would understand I am trying to give them better stuff to read.

 

 I do understand the misunderstanding about “Advanced Topics”. The guys that hate the idea seem to again feel it is discrimination. Advanced Topics is on the back burner at the moment but I am 100% sure it is a good idea. I am not sure it has been implemented correctly.

 

The concept is/was, (analogy) would you rather sit in an audience and listen to smart (celebrity?) guys talk about concepts you are interested in or would you want to meet those guys at a loud party where 50 other people are asking them questions at the same time.  If you let the higher end skiers occasionally talk among themselves without interruption we the readers should get far more interesting information.  Again the goal is better information for all of use. I can’t say this enough times, I started my first forum because I wanted the advice of skiers who were better than me.

 

One last thing. There are between 2,500 and 3,500 unique visitors to this forum every day. 99% of them never post. They are here to just read and learn something about water skiing. 

 

[estrom]

@Horton, I'll just provide a couple of comments from a lay man's perspective.

First, I completely get what you initially set out to do and continue to do with this site. I'm 50/50 on the idea of somehow indentifying the skiing capabilities of each person. I'm not against it, but not entirely sure it's necessary. If a person takes the time to hang out here, it doesn't take very long to get some sort of idea who most people are and their skiing ability/coaching ability. I can read a thread having to do with technique and know who I will give more credence to with their comments. After a watching for a while, I don't need to see some form of skier rating to figure out whose comments I pay close attention to. Besides, most folks will begin their comments with some sort of qualifier like, "I'm at the same level as you..." or "I'm a -28 skier...". And to take it a step further, ball count doesn't necessarily equate to coaching ability. I think there's a couple of -35 guys who can identify and communicate concepts more clearly than some that get into -38 and beyond. That's true in any sport.

 

As for the Advanced Topic idea, I really enjoy sitting back and watching "round table discussions" from those who are really advanced. I don't like the idea though, that the conversation is completely closed. Someone at -22 or -28 (I would not include these in this advanced category) might have a legitimate question as to how the concept being discussed will help them move to -32 or beyond. Having an Advanced Topic category is great and I think most of us who aren't qualified for that group will know that and would be happy to sit back and watch. I just don't like the completely closed concept because, although I wouldn't pretend to know enough to interject my ideas, I might have a good question relating to the topic for the advanced folks that are talking/discussing.

 

Great site @Horton. It's working well and I know I've learned a ton from hanging here.

 

[Horton]

@estrom

I think we understand each other perfectly. Unfortunately there is no manual on how to run a web forum.

[estrom]

true. lots of trial and error...or throwing stuff on the wall to see what sticks!

 

[mwetskier]

from a different point of view there have been many great coaches in all kinds of sports thru out history who could not actually do the sport they were coaching and many great athletes who turn out worthless as coaches. i think i would prefer the opinion of a good coach over a great skier because the skier might be a total natural who cant coach very good about what he does but the coach wont be well respected unless he can get results. i dont need to know how nate does what nate does i need to know how i can do what nate does and i think theres a difference.

[gator1]

Everybody who watched Dr. Jim ski knew his claims were BS based on his technique, or lack thereof.

 

A big part of this is about two things, one a bit more noble than the other. The noble one is establishing legitimacy behind a poster's comments. The less noble, but probably more human, is backing up bragging rights, or in the inverse, not detracting value from bragging rights, of those like @richardone who have invested untold time and money in establishing them.

 

So......how about anybody who wants to claim a pass, but doesn't choose to invest in tourneys, either posts a video or shuts up?

 

It'd be interesting to see how close we could come to guessing a guy's best from watching a video. I'd bet in aggregate the ballers could get really dam close.

[Horton]

also true but generally you know more than a guy who runs a pass less than you

[ToddL]

Back on topic... I have run my hardest pass in practice - a couple of times this season. None of those successful passes were: 1) in sequence off the dock, or 2) at speed. In all cases, either several failed attempts preceded a successful one or I had lowered the boat speed 1 mph to help slow things down a bit. Do those passes count? It depends on for what purpose.

 

My passes above are not as legit as a true tournament set, at speed, and sequentially through my hardest pass off the dock. So, that's part of it. I am sure that many skiers have had that great practice set where they finally "ran" whatever pass is their hardest. However, if it wasn't while practicing a tournament set (at speed, in sequence, no mulligans), then it was just not the same as a tournament score. There is just something that matters more when it is off-the-dock, at speed.

 

On the other hand, any skier who finally rounds 6-ball and exits the gates on that hardest pass will and should celebrate the accomplishment regardless of the context. It is a great feeling and worth celebrating. All skiers will and should congratulate them, since we all want each other to ski our best.

[Texas6]

@ToddL, yes we all have different ways of judging success and I certainly won't critique yours. Having said that, I would not be able to count a practice pass for myself personally if the boat wasn't at speed. But that is just me.

[swc5150]

"generally you know more than a guy who runs a pass less than you"

 

I see that as way too general of a statement. When I raced alpine, I had 26 coaches, and m smoke 24 of them on any given hill, on any given day. However, their knowledge of the mechanics and fundamentals was unparalleled, and I was beyond fortunate to have their tutelage.

 

"So......how about anybody who wants to claim a pass, but doesn't choose to invest in tourneys, either posts a video or shuts up?"

 

How about showing thread examples of non-tourney guys claiming passes?

 

I get where Horton is coming from, but I think to accomplish it on BOS would cause segregation and fracture amongst its members. It may actually take an entirely new forum site, requiring tournament certification to join, which I have no doubt is not what he wants to do.

[Horton]

@swc5150

I have no plans for a site or changes like you describe above. I am always just looking for ways to keep the quality of content high. I do not want to fracture or segregate the membership.

 

And demanding videos is not the right idea either. My long post above is theoretical - letting you guys know how I think about it. In reality there are no changes coming. When this thread dies this subject will be mostly forgotten.

 

I have never claimed to be the best forum admin in the world. I am still looking for the book to tell me how to keep everyone at every level happy and be a resource to the sport.

[Than_Bogan]

When you know how to make everyone at every level happy, then you will both write the book and become the ruler of the world.

[Razorskier1]

I'm not sure this is worth all the brain damage. Each of us measures our success on the ski in our own way. For me tournaments have always been fun. When I started tournament skiing in my early 30's I was starting at 28mph, 15 off and trying like hell to get to 36mph. I couldn't even comprehend how guys ran shortlines at full speed! Nearly 20 years later I still love tournaments, but often I look forward to seeing old friends and making new ones more than the skiing! Oh, and like @Than_Bogan says, coming by new PBs isn't as easy as it was in the beginning, but I still keep coming back for more.

[Bulldog]

@Horton don't worry - your web site and forum about watersking is the best there is!!! It is respectful and allows different opinions from a variety of abilities. It is the GO TO source for all things waterski!!

[A_B]

If we all agreed, this would be a stagnant and boring place.

 

I think some comments of how to do something from someone currently at the same level who had a breakthrough are very relevant, as they may understand it better than someone who intuitively "gets it" without trying.. make sense?

[swc5150]

Amen @bulldog! @Horton has put together the best resource for those who love to ski, and I'm greatful for that.

[webbdawg99]

Can we all agree on one thing? If you run your pb in practice AND its not at speed...it DEFINITELY doesn't count!!!

[Texas6]

@webbdawg99 - YES!!!!! We agree with one exception being the fifteen-offer who is raising the speed on his opening line length prior to ever shortening the rope. Outside of that the boat has to be at speed to count a practice pass!!

[Daryn_Dean]

@webbdawg99. There are no exceptions to this rule.

[jimbrake]

Please, no one look up my scores for the past few years. I know way more about skiing than it appears from my scores and ranking. I'm also old enough and smart enough to know that I don't know it all. Still learning every day.

[6balls]

Skiing should be fun. What constitutes fun is different for each of us and thus corresponds to where we take it. Most on this forum, though, I see trying to get better regardless. When anyone gets better I see them post with some pride on this site and that's great...we should give them some props unless they are dinks about it.

 

If tourneys are fun go for it and tell me about your PB...I love it. If your time on the home lake is more precious and you PB tell me about it and I'm happy for you, too.

 

If s'one smokes a 38(or other tough pass for themselves) in practice...I think that's cool and it ain't easy. At the same time I know first hand how much MORE challenging it is to do that on tourney day and I really respect that as well.

 

It's all good. I do hope for those who have not skied a tourney that they go try it and see what's up. It may be another way to have fun skiing. If not, keep skiing at home.

 

I like skiing a tourney here and there, and I like skiing at home (or at other's homes...I'm pretty much good to go whenever!). With a few less personal obligations, I'd probably ski more tourneys.

 

Let's all go skiing...wherever that may be for each of us at home or at tourneys. It's about fun.

 

 

 

 

[crashman]

good take on it @6balls -- Take the sport only as seriously as you want

[DanE]

For me, practice pb Always Count.

What do fellow skiers think about that?-I don't give a rats ass, why should I?And why should they?

[webbdawg99]

@DanE If you're posting your practice pb on BOS, then I can only assume that you do give a rats ass what others think. Otherwise, why post it?

[DanE]

@webbdawg99 I don't recall posting my practice pb on the web-ever...

[wtrskior]

My first post on the site. Long time lurker with over 25 years skiing, Never even been to a tournament of any kind but I've followed the scene forever. Most waterskiers are in a similar boat as myself, with most being even less interested in competitive skiing. There are millions of water skiers in this world.. A few thousand competitors to put it in perspective...

 

You'd think from the regular posters here we are in the minority. Time to wake up! The arrogance and egos are a big reason I have little interest in tournaments. Tournament participation is decreasing year after year and as a fan, potential competitor it saddens me. Its up to the current regime to change things, and to be more inclusive instead of exclusive.

 

Who cares if you're pb is behind pp on a bowed out course, go ski with that guy and set his course record.

 

 

[DanE]

@OB If you ask me, I will tell you.

Doubt you'll care though, as it is a practice pb we are talking about right?

Should I elaborate? MY practice pb matters to me, others- not so much.

[ski6jones]

Comparing tournament PB's to practice PB's is like comparing apples and oranges. They're different, but both are good.

[danbirch]

If I run a certain score in practice, I will eventually run that score in a tournament. It's only a matter of time. It shows that I have the ability to run it.

[webbdawg99]

@DanE I wasn't referring to you specifically.

 

@OB...just for you...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d29VsG35DQM

[jipster43]

@wtrskior I didn't ski tournaments until three years ago largely because of what you perceive to be the case. My experience has been entirely different. Invariably the best skiers are the nicest and most approachable folks out there. Which is saying something because I haven't met any uptight or unapproachable skiers yet. I'm sure they're out there, but you'd have to search them out.

 

I have two PB's. My tournament PB (2@28') and my practice PB (2@32'). If I didn't go to tournaments, I could drop that 2@28'! Believe me, I'd like to! But they are two entirely different beasts. My 2@32 has always happened right off the dock, but there was never a fear that if I flubbed my opener or my second pass that I'd be done. I'm so Scotch that the idea of not getting my money's worth out of a round gets me a little too amped!

[tsixam]

Both (P)PB (practise personal best) and ©PB (competition personal best) counts but in a slightly different way.

When I ski at my home lake I know that the boat path maybe was not perfect, the slalom course maybe not to RC specifications but we ski, have fun and try to match our PPBs. A beginner who sets a new PPB by running the whole slalom course for the first time is absolutely worth cheering as well as someone who runs 35 off for the first time. And we compete against each other with a handicap system and we brag about our achievements and I am surely proud of my PPB. It counts! But not in a competition.

 

In a competition, depending of class there are several judges, end course video, gate cameras and the course is measured. If you really want to compete against others, feel the pressure, have a proof of your ability, get into the ranking lists and maybe stand on the podium, competition is the way to go.

 

 

The only thing that bothers me is that my PPB is way better than my CPB.

 

Tsixam

 

[disland]

Another take. I was a surfer for many years (1985-1999) I lived in Hawaii and California. What I missed as a former collegiate athlete was the competition. Sure surfing has competitions but its really just for groms (that's surfing for jr's) and pro's. When I moved to Dallas (obviously no waves) I got into skiing and then jumping (at age 40). The fun of it to me is the competition. But I agree with Than. figuring out what other people are motivated by is a waste of time. I am just happy I have tournaments to go to.

[Than_Bogan]

@jipster43 nailed it. There's 10x more arrogance (or at least percieved arrogance) on the web than there is at an actual tournament. For those who don't have an ounce of interest in tournaments, I have no problem with that. But please don't make assumptions about them. I suggest going to a few and seeing what you think. Might be your thing; might not be.

[The_MS]

"Never even been to a tournament of any kind" but "The arrogance and egos are a big reason I have little interest in tournaments"

I am not sure how those statements got in the same post.

 

I am going to Cottonwood in a few weeks to hang out with all those arrogant tourney skiers. I think I will just keep to myself and not talk to any one so that I dont have to put up with those snobby ballers that attend. Lots of large egos on those skiers.

[wtrskior]

@ms is that an invite? I dont have to go to tournaments to know tournament skiers...

 

I also learn a lot from this forum about tournaments, maybe than is right that the internet is worse but that doesn't build your case for being inviting.

[The_MS]

@wtrskior I am flying down to attend and it is sure to be another story filled weekend. The problem is that you have to put up with guys like @Shane, @skidawg, @MAD11, @Sbink, @teammalibu, @JD and a bunch of other strange people.

[eleeski]

Interesting discussion on a topic I had absolutely no interest in until it started to reek of controversy. How fun to see...

 

I only jump in tournaments. Maybe only a couple of jumps have given me the visceral pleasure that real jumpers get. So I jump for an overall score or to entertain the crowds of spectators on shore. I don't boast about my jump scores (OK maybe I will: I am not the worst jumper in the world! Tournament proven.)

 

I trick a lot (normally). I try to make half the session tournament prep and half the session just raw fun. Tournaments are like an artistic performance - I do ski for the crowd (or at least the judges). Tournament scores don't matter, tournament performances do.

 

I enjoy slalom. Tournaments are fun as party opportunities anchored by a crack at the course. My tournament PBs are a bit off my practice PBs but my tournament average is probably a bit better than my practice average. Practice is however very fun - especially with a few good friends. That's where the competition kicks in! It may involve spotting a pass or two but when the intensity gets going, it is real competition. (I'd be all over boasting on @AKShortline if his kid hadn't whuped both of us last time he visited...) Yeah, practice matters.

 

"I'm the best skier on the lake!" GNAR

 

Eric

[ForrestGump]

Tournament skiing is not just about competition for me. It's about the comraderie. The people. Getting to hang out with a diverse group of individuals with a common bond. I've made great friends separated by hundreds and sometimes thousands of miles.I may never be anything more than a mediocre skier, but I will be a mediocre skier who has made life long friends through competitive skiing.

[webbdawg99]

@wtrskior

First, let me sincerely apologize to you if any of our banter has come across as arrogance. We are competitive, however. I think if you do ever decide to get involved in the tournament scene, you will meet some of the nicest, most gracious, and enthusiastic people you've ever met. Dont knock it until you try it.

 

And I second what @Than said.....perceived arrogance is probably a lot stronger on the internet....and pretty much non existent at 99% of the tournaments I've been to.

[Jody_Seal]

How the hell can I make my team mates better by practice?

Did Two Deep water starts last night!!! back to back passes!! I am killing it in "PRACTICE"! Took me two rounds to run 6 buoy's in a tournament last weekend!!! Sorry it is all about "Practice"!! LOL!!!

[wtrskior]

@webbdawg99 I am involved in the tournament scene, I "train" just like most of you, I just don't ski in them. Frankly in my area a lot of tourney scores are higher than practice. Better drivers,sites and a desire to get 1 more buoy. There are very few around me, they appear boring (lots of sitting around) and my weekends are very valuable to me.

 

I think there is a huge disconnect between the tournament scene and water skiing in general, proven by this thread and many other comments., Frankly I don't need someone on an internet forum to tell me how inconsequential and meaningless the DECADES I've spent learning and the thousands upon thousands of dollars I've spent on this sport are. I know what I can do on the water.

 

I look at a guy like Marcus Brown and think hes on the right program, we all need to be more like that guy. I love this sport and would like more opportunity for me and my kids to be involved. Probably idealistic but I also dream of running 38

[Horton]

@wtskior

you post is a lot more thoughtful that my original post

[A_B]

Most skiers I know ski practice rounds at a pretty high level, either running up the rope or working on technique or conditioning at PRACTICE. Iverson wouldn't know a good PRACTICE if it hit him in the head.

[mwetskier]

@rico -you give more respect to the coaching of guys who run 39 off but sometimes some great stuff can come from the meakest source. around the beginning of this summer I happened to watch a 12 year old boy ski the slalom course and i was so impressed with his style that i asked him how he turned the ski way he did. he explained and imitated it right on the dock and i went out and tried it while he rode in the boat. he made some suggestions and i skied a couple more passes and then we did that again a couple more times. now a few months later i am a better skier than i have ever been and a huge part of that was getting advice from someone do what i wanted to do and look like what i want to look like and it didnt matter that this kids never even ran 22 off in a tournament.

 

when a guy has been skiing all his life and runs 39 off he might end up giving coaching advice that sounds good and mimicks what other great skiers say but it might t not actually be what hes doing when he skis and it might not be the advice that will help you ski better. i have paid many professional ski coaches for there time and advice over the years and most all of them have improved my skiing in some way or another but the very best coaching in 20 years that i ever got came from a talented sixth grader whos never even been on a podium but has also not had his thinking influenced by hundreds of magazine articles and forums and the advice of tournament hot shots.