New Stargazer install inconsistent

[Lars]

Struggling with the stargazer upgrade I installed this year, especially since my drivers are generally not course skiers and I can't tweak it between passes from the water...

They've graciously been taking pictures of the full course buoy times calculated after a lot of passes and I generally get one of three types of pulls at 32mph:

1. full course time .5-1.0s slow, no rodeo ride (driver error on throttle position?)

2. accurate full course time, rodeo ride midway through course, either speeding up or down

3. accurate full course time, consistent pull.

 

I'm lucky to get #3 once per set, a little more frequently if the wind is calm

 

I have plenty of setup space and my drivers knows to get the rpms 3400 once I'm out of the water but still doesn't seem to be consistent. I've tweaked the baseline to get consistent full course times, and those are usually pretty good.

 

I've been reading the other stargazer help threads, especially this one: http://ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/4590/stargazer-help

 

Seems like @Ed_Obermeier is suggesting to lower the baseline rpm to get the system to lock in sooner and bulk up the crew weight to compensate, is that correct?

 

Is it worth screwing with the rpm inversion, and 'background settings,' or adding springs if I know the system can occasionally give me a good pull?

 

I hate spending my whole set trying to get my opening pass, I'm tempted to just switch back to RPM mode so I can work on improving and not fighting the boat.

 

Boat is 04 PS197 with 1:1 MCX, mechanical linkage.

[Ilivetoski]

Put in zbox. I've skied behind a number of stargazer boats that will give good times, but they will be slow to one ball and fast to the next. Never skied behind a consistent stargazer. I have z box in our boat and we check segment times often and they are pretty good

[TallSkinnyGuy]

Have you confirmed that RPM mode is holding RPMs within plus or minus 10 rpms? If you set it to 3200 rpms in RPM mode it should hold 3200-3210 rpms very steady. If it is not holding rpms steady, try doing the RPM inversion (it is just a push of a button). This made a huge difference with the system in my boat.

[ozski]

Even with Zbox PP is a distant second to Zero off. Sadly.

[GregHind]

What software version do you have? Have you done a servo motor test? Post a video of the servo test here.

[Chef23]

I have an 01 Malibu Response with Stargazer and have it set up pretty well. I have the tach inverted, the baseline dropped and have played with the 1 ball and 3 ball settings. You still have to be careful with pulling someone up as one of our setups is short. We generally just leave the crew weight at 350 lbs.

 

I have a document that Ed put together that was a great help to me in getting it set up. I can send it to anyone that wants it if they message me an email address.

[Edbrazil]

The note by @Mark_Matis reminded me of something about ignition switches. Back when

we had the Ultra Pond ski site in NH. We had a club boat, maybe MC, maybe Supreme.

Parked in our yard. One morning about 7am, leaving the house to go to work, I was

about to get in my car. The boat started itself! No key in the ignition. So, yes, you

can have bad ignition switches.

[mikegile]

I could be a ground issue as well. You can rule this out with a control test.

 

Hit up arrow and menu buttons together

-hit menu until you get to device test

-hit menu to get past rope switch screen

you will now be in control test mode

 

Throttle up. It should hold about 1700rpm. Flip on lights, heater, stereo, everything electronic. If RPM changes it is likely a ground issue.

 

I think there is a video on their website that goes through it.

 

Perfect Pass has great customer service, give them a call and they will talk you through whatever the issue may be.

 

Good luck!

[Lars]

Thanks for the comments,

 

@Ilivetoski I'm thinking about it, anyone else think zbox would be a good addition?

 

@TallSkinnyGuy I've done this and it does hold pretty consistently.

 

@GregHind I'd have to check, should be most recent, I bought it from s2s this spring

 

@Mark_Matis It's a 2004, I'll have to check this resistance

 

@Mike Gile Hadn't heard of this one but I'll give it a go as well.

 

[gregy]

Zbox didn't help me much for me. It was too firm much worse than ZO.

[mikegile]

We had stargazer set up on a 2000 Nautique that worked great. We added the z'box and everyone in our group got significantly worse. We removed it and the stargazer worked great again. Don't know if it was our install or a boat issue.

 

I moved the zbox to my 2006 197 TT and it works great. Very predictable.

[bassfooter]

We put Z Box on our '98 SN after a couple seasons with just Stargazer, and it was much better right off the bat. It's not ZO, but I think it's closer to ZO than classic PP.

 

The driver has to come up to the target RPM without overshooting it too much, especially with a short setup. If you overshoot the target RPM, it tends to take too long to correct on our boat, making maddening throttle adjustments well into the course. I know of another Z Box installation on a newer ('04-ish) Malibu that also runs great, and does not have the overshoot problem ours does.

 

Someone on BOS -- probably Ed -- recommended getting SG dialed in before adding Z Box. In other words, Z Box isn't going to make voltage or linkage issues go away. If you can find a retailer who will let you return it, you have nothing to lose except a few more days of messing around with it. Still way better than being at work, right?

 

 

[DanE]

@gregy Firmness of Zbox is easily adjusted to your liking.

[gregy]

@DanE got tired of messing with it. Spent countless hours and have just been using the SG mode lately. Maybe I'll get motivated again at some point and work on it.

[skiboyny]

Stargazer won't feel right unless you get it running within a couple of hundreds between balls every time. You have to go into the background settings and make changes. I've had to do it on 2 boats and they both run on the money now.

 

[GregHind]

Ed's solutions worked very well for him and I have a lot of respect for his advice and methods. That said, you should not need to have artificial low baselines Etc. PP are very clever programmers and if these types of tweaks were typically needed, they would be included in the basic software. Ed ran an old version. The current version is very stable and should work GREAT on an 04 MCX Mastercraft. So the question is, what is wrong??

 

Firstly we need to check for smooth servo motor operation. If the throttle sticks or jumps, there is no hope for PP to control it. Do a servo motor test and video it. Post it here or on YouTube. When you do the test, do it at 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and full throttle. We need perfectly smooth operation. Do this with the engine off, at home on the trailer or in the water.

 

Second likely suspect is voltage problems. If the servo motor is running smoothly then we can fix your electrics (be it wires, ignition switches or whatever)

 

After that, then tweak the PP settings.

 

In the last 13 years I've installed PP on jet boats, outboards, inboards and ALL sorts of crazy applications. PP works great. Sometimes there are weird problems but this is what happens when you retrofit to an old boat.

 

Anyway let's see the video of your servo motor tests then we can talk about electrics.

[GregHind]

This is the test you need to do.

 

At the 3 minute mark it goes into how to make the servo rotate. You can firstly see how the cord should wrap around the black servo knob. Note that it should be smooth with no jumps. Then at 4:25 you can see the linkage itself. It is very smooth, no jumps and no pauses. Take a video of your linkage for us. Do the test at 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and full throttle settings. We need to see smooth operation at all points.

 

[Lars]

Thank you for the detailed response @GregHind. I will be doing this when I get back out to my boat in the next day or two and posting an update.

[Lars]

Here's a video of the servo test. It gets slack when throttle is closed, but maybe that's ok?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b-zjiF5a40

 

Also,

SRVON= 10.7OK

SRVOFF= 11.80K

 

perfect pass video said that lower voltage may not be a problem if the engine is off (which it was)

[GregHind]

Take that same video from the other end of the cable, where it connects to be engine. Unfortunately your video doesn't show much (because it is the wrong end) but it does look a bit jumpy

 

The voltage is low but not representative because that needs to be checked on the lake with the engine running.

[Lars]

here is the proper video. I think my 1/4 throttle was a bit more like idle position...

 

 

http://youtu.be/-uzZCMLSlww

 

With engine running srvON is 12.9. SrvOFF is 14.1.

[Lars]

here is the proper video. I think my 1/4 throttle was a bit more like idle position...

 

 

http://youtu.be/-uzZCMLSlww

 

With engine running srvON is 12.9. SrvOFF is 14.1.

[GregHind]

@lars that video is better but still hard to see because it is not zoomed in enough. However I don't like how hard the curves are on your throttle cable. Are you certain the throttle is moving perfectly smoothly? What that black knob changes direction and moves on tick is it perfectly conveyed through to the throttle or are cables bending/taking up slack/wiggling?

 

Your voltage at 12.9 volts is low. I'm not certain it is bad enough to cause problems but it might. I'll tell you how to fix this later

 

Can you please get that video one more time. This time get a full 30 seconds at each throttle position and zoom in closely around the throttle linkage so we can see it in detail.

 

Please also take a high res shot of the motor showing installation locations and how the cable bends.

 

Finally, how strong is your boat accelerating from 32mph to 38mph. Is it fast? Firm? Solid? Weak?

[GregHind]

@lars that video is better but still hard to see because it is not zoomed in enough. However I don't like how hard the curves are on your throttle cable. Are you certain the throttle is moving perfectly smoothly? What that black knob changes direction and moves on tick is it perfectly conveyed through to the throttle or are cables bending/taking up slack/wiggling?

 

Your voltage at 12.9 volts is low. I'm not certain it is bad enough to cause problems but it might. I'll tell you how to fix this later

 

Can you please get that video one more time. This time get a full 30 seconds at each throttle position and zoom in closely around the throttle linkage so we can see it in detail.

 

Please also take a high res shot of the motor showing installation locations and how the cable bends.

 

Finally, how strong is your boat accelerating from 32mph to 38mph. Is it fast? Firm? Solid? Weak?

[GregHind]

@lars do you understand 12 volt wiring? Do you know how to install new wires from the battery to stargazer, via a fuse and relay? Do you have access to 6mm twin auto cable?

[GregHind]

@lars do you understand 12 volt wiring? Do you know how to install new wires from the battery to stargazer, via a fuse and relay? Do you have access to 6mm twin auto cable?

[Lars]

@GregHind thanks for your continued interest in this thread! I'm an electrical engineer so yes yes no problem rewiring. Have not heard of that particular kind of wire but could probably find something similar.

 

Tried to post a picture of the overall setup from mobile, might have to figure it out on the computer though.

 

With a stopwatch can accelerate from 32 to 38 in about 3 seconds. Feels pretty quick.

 

Took another closer/longer video of the servo test, I think this should accurately show everything that is going on.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yTuWuVCHPTM

[GregHind]

@Lars good video. Is the servo cable rubbing? It looks like it might be in the video. Everything seems smooth though.

 

your boat seems to accelerate well, faster than many or most. It might be worth extending the length of the throttle pivot, by bolting a plate to the existing one and moving the brass L adaptor further way from the bottom of the boat, towards the sky. This will mean you have to move the throttle more distance to get the same amount of power. Basically the throttle will be less sensitive (but you still have access to full power)

 

back with wiring instructions soon

 

[GregHind]

For my wiring harnesses I use 6mm auto cable which is 4.6mm cross sectional area. There is no direct conversion to AWG size but it is between 10 and 11. 11 gauge should do, anything fatter (eg 10 AWG 8awg Etc) is better but not important in practice

 

I hook the negative of this direct to the battery and the positive via a 10 amp blade fuse then direct to battery

 

This negative then goes to PP (and nothing else). The positive via an ignition switched relay and then to PP. nothing else connected. This will give a much higher voltage to perfect pass and sorts out all sorts of problems for most people

 

In your case @lars I'm thinking your boat is overreacting to throttle inputs and the easiest solution is the bracket I described but since you have the background to easily improve the voltage of your system (which is on the low side) then you should do that too

[MrJones]

We fought with Stargazer for a season, then just gave up and skied classic mode. Stargazer was a complete waste of money from our perspective and definitely not an upgrade.

(Sorry for the negativity, but I still bear a grudge)

[GregHind]

@mrjones I hear you, you just want to ski. Thing is there are a small percentage of people that have problems with stargazer and it is complicated by the fact that each engine is different (strong, soft, tired, worn out), each throttle is different (direct, mid or long throw), most older boat electrics are marginal at best (like @lars) or more commonly really rubbish like most. Then the system is usually installed by amatures and handy people, you get what I mean

 

It is a great system and works well for the vast majority of people. I'd like to write a guide to help people like @mrjones sort it out.

 

@mrjones do you still have that boat? Can you do the same electrical test and provide the same video above? How fast does your boat accelerate from 33 to 38mph?

 

Given the throttle in the video is smooth not jumpy and the throttle return Spring clearly works well, I think three steps will get @lars sorted

 

1. Desensitise the throttle by changing the leverage point (just make the arm taller), say double the length from the pivot point.

2. Upgrade the electrics

3. Tweak the PP software

 

@lars are you willing and able to try this?

 

Greg

 

[Waternut]

I do like my stargazer setup but I also run slalom in the old classic mode. Using Stargazer in slalom mode which also somehow uses gps to determine crew and skier weight is a recipe for disaster IMO. Driven 3 boats in the normal Stargazer slalom setting and they all suck worse than a novice hand driving.

[GregHind]

The reason why classic mode still gives a great pull even when stargazer or zbox doesn't is because of the data sampling rate. Say you are doing 3600rpm at 36mph. This is 3600rpm/60 seconds=60 revs per second. X 8 cylinders / 2 (each cylinder only fires every second rotation on a 4 stroke) = 240 engine speed samples per second. In classic mode it is only trying to maintain a target rpm and gets fast feedback to help do that.

 

In stargazer mode it is trying to recalibrate 5 times per second - only 5 times. It is still RPM driven but GPS 5 Hz sample rate complicates it all a bit.

 

The main things are smooth servo motor operation and a level of engine responsiveness which is reasonably matched to what PP expects it to be. If either of those things are off then stargazer has no hope - but classic mode can often still manage.

 

Stargazer still needs skier weight (feather Etc) and crew weight. It can eventually tune in but each pass it needs to start again so it isn't a good idea to leave those out because it will throw things off

 

 

[Lars]

Sorry for the delay! was on vacation... Should be able to tackle the wiring if I buy a relay. I'll see about raising that bracket too. Anyone else ever lengthened that bracket? I'm guessing something with this shape snugged down tight would do the trick: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Superstrut-2-Hole-90-Degree-Angle-Bracket-Silver-Galvanized-ZAB201EG-10/100390324

[GregHind]

@lars I didn't mean the brass l adaptor. Extend the whole throttle arm to "gear down" the rate of change if the throttle. I can edit your photos tomorrow to show you what I mean.

Also can try different ball settings in the meantime since you know the servo is operating smoothly

[Lars]

I think a picture might help if it's not too much trouble... I was poking around this weekend and was measuring ~13.5V at the perfect pass fuse with the engine running. That seems pretty good to me?

[GregHind]

@lars it should be OK but given the problems you've been having I'd be tempted to improve it anyway. Are your battery connections clean and tight? Free of corrosion? Do you have wing nuts holding the wires on? photo of battery would be helpful. I have to build a wiring harness soon, will take pics. In the meantime try extending the pivot point on your throttle and software ball time tweaks

[skiboyny]

@Lars try adjusting the background settings to 20-18-20 See if that makes an improvement if it does you will be very close to setting it up right. I have to boats that I put stargazer in on my lake. Both needed background settings adjusted. Lost almost a whole summer messing around with it. Very frustrating. Both are perfect now!

[GregHind]

Background Adjustable Settings (ON/OFF & UP Keys together)

 

 

While most users will never need to make adjustments, PerfectPass has made some internal settings accessible in the event your boat’s performance could benefit from a setting change. (Note: Before any adjustments are ever made you should confirm in CAL BASELINE Mode that you get perfect times without a skier which confirms your baselines are ok.)

Access these screens by pressing the ON/OFF & UP Keys together.

 

MENU Key to move down list

UP Key to make adjustments

 

These internal settings are related to the Star Gazer software, not the Z Box directly. If you find your times are consistently a little slow at ball one, ball 3 or vice versa, you may want to tweak these settings.

 

There are independent settings for each skier size (Feather, Light, Normal and X-Large). The table on the next page shows the internal chart for each factory setting:

This screen shows the chart for normal setting, 34.2 mph and less.

 

Ball One – This setting primarily controls the Ball One Time. In the event your ball one times are consistently on the slow side, try moving this value higher by about 5 points each time until your Ball One Times are nicely balanced. (The factory setting is about 8.)

Ball Three – This setting controls the speed from Ball One to Ball Three. In the event your Ball Three Times are consistently on the slow side, try adjusting higher or if fast set lower. (The factory setting ranges from 50-64)

Ball Four to Exit – This setting controls the speed to exit. Typically most boats can start to back off as less rpm is required in this section. The higher the value, the faster the time in the final section of course. (The factory value ranges from 23 to 35) Ex: If you see consistently fast times in the final part of the course, you can lower this value and more rpm will be taken away.

 

 

Each skier size setting has its own values. If you primarily use Normal at 34.2 mph, simply adjust the values associated with this section.

Press Menu for additional screen settings.

 

Use MENU Key to move through screen.

 

KX – KX speeds up the boats general throttle response. It comes set at N for Normal. If you have an older carbureted boat and find you would like it more aggressive, you can set this to “+” or “++”. (KX minus is not recommended).

 

Z Box Settings

ZBX – This value simply increases the intensity of the systems response to the skiers pull. It comes factory set at 8, a higher value will increase the response. (Adjust in small increments only) Ex: You feel the throttle response is too strong, you can lower the value by a point or two.

 

ABC adj – This defaults to 00 and is a value related directly to the response of the A,B,C (1,2,3) settings. Ex: If you require a B2 setting on your boat to make it feel like an A2 setting on newer boats, you can adjust this so the chart on your boat will match the newer boats. In this example, the “ABC adj” value can be adjusted up (to 03 or 3 positions) and now your boats B2 will feel like the B2 on a newer promo boat.

The idea here is that you can get the chart settings on your boat to align and feel like and match those newer boats you ski behind. This may be required if you have a 1:1 transmission or a smaller prop. Discuss with PerfectPass Tech Support if you feel a change is required

[skiboyny]

When setting up Stargazer background settings. Ball one time affects ball 2 so you raise it until ball 2 is on the money. Ball 3 affects ball 4 and you usually have to lower it to eliminate the run away. Ball 4 to exit look at ball 5 and six. This makes no sense to me and it was suggested to me via this site by @DanE. It works perfectly and as I said I have 2 boats on my lake that had to have these settings done. The boats are within a thousandth between each ball and end times are spot on. They ski real nice to. Give this a try it will work!