Perfect Pass 3 event version 9

[GAJ0004]

I have version 9 of Perfect Pass Stargazer 3 event. Has anyone run into where it surges while pulling a skier in the course? I checked all the linkage tests and everything came out okay, and when running a timing check with no skier the numbers come out okay. I have been adusting the ball 1 background settings which is helping, but it will take me a few more times to dial it in. I have a 240 hp carbureted engine, and a 1:1 tranny. If anyone out there has run into the same thing, were you able to solve it, and how did you do it? Perfect pass has been very helpful, but I want to see if anyone else ran into the same thing. I want to get it dialed in so I can add zbox. Any idea if Zbox would solve it?

[GAJ0004]

The times are all in RC tolerance, but it surges from ball 2-3. Any thoughts?

 

[Windsurfnut]

The manual suggests that a Kx setting of + or ++ may be needed on carbed motors and 1:1.

Do you come in hot to the course? On one end of our course we have a 90 degree turn in and the boat accelerates to maintain speed, comes in hot, tries to slow down by ball one, then is too slow so accelerates at ball 2.

Coming straight into the course I don’t have that issue at the other end.

[UWSkier]

does it do it in both directions? You can adjust ball-to-ball times/intensities for the four different skier weight pre-sets. Should be able to get it dialed in that way if you're sure the linkage and return spring are working properly.

[skiboyny]

I have been involved in three boats that have had this problem. They are all running great. The key is the background settings. You need to focus on ball times. I was told by a forum member @DanE that ball one adjust 2 ball time ball 3 adjust 4 ball time and so on. That’s really what it took to get it right. You will find that 2 ball time is slow and to fix it you will have to raise ball one background a lot. Maybe to 20 if memory serves. I’m pretty sure than 3 adjust will have to go down to make 4 ball right. The smother the skier the better for your adjustments and don’t be afraid to move them. it can seem like a moving target. 20 15 19 are some numbers you can try on normal background settings. They should get you close.

[GAJ0004]

Thank guys. It sounds like I am on the right track. The adjustments I have made so far are helping, but has not eliminated it yet, but it has improved.

 

[GAJ0004]

They told me at Perfect Pass the kx would not affect the times, just the firmness of the pull. My boat already feels pretty solid.

 

[DW]

@GAJ0004 : PP tends to like a stiff throttle return spring and make sure your not throttling right where the secondaries open, PP suggests disconnecting them to verify. Just some food for thought in addition to dialing the settings.

[GAJ0004]

I put a new return spring in it last year. I may try tightening it up a bit.

I had the original version of Stargazer before the module blew after 10 seasons. I originally had it take off from ball 3 to the end of the course. I just added an extra 50-100 pounds to the crew weight setting which fixed it. On the new version it surges between 2-3 ball only. The rest of the course it feels normal. The numbers on the background settings go all the way up to 100. Perfect Pass tech support told me to turn up the ball one setting. I just don't know by how much yet.

[hemlock]

@skiboyny is spot on.

Background settings are key.

I run 15-20-15 for 55kph (34.2 mph) on normal skier.

I did an experiment this summer as my ball times were always +.01 or +.04. In that range.

(But always within tolerance with overall time of 16.86 to 17.04 at 55Kph)

Bumped up the background settings by 50 points on each of the three settings. B1, B3 and B4 to exit. After that, everything was -.01 or -.04.

So finally came up with B1=15, B3=20, B4Exit=15.

Ball times are very close to 0.00 give or take 0.01.

These trials will need to be of course adjusted with a skier running the course.

What really fixed the middle course surges was lowering the B3 setting. I think the default was up around 50 and lowering it dramatically fixed the surge problem.

 

I *think* you push the on/off button and up key together to get to the background settings. Also, if you have a short setup, version 9.12 or higher (different from previous 9.0x versions) has really improved the engagement after pulling up a skier. It's very similar to a zero off boat where it keeps the RPM's up as you plain and gain speed, and then backs off the gas for you once the speed is locked in.

 

[UWSkier]

Yep, and once you get it dialed for the normal size skier, you get to do it again for the featherweights and the clydesdales. :)

[Keith_Menard]

On mine, my 34 and 36 is spot on, but 32, 30, and 28 are fast. Can the background be adjusted by speed?

[GAJ0004]

@hemlock I am going to try raising the ball one setting, and lowering the ball 3 setting slightly. Keith, you can adjust the backgrounds within each speed, once you get to the speed then you go into the skier weight sections.

[Windsurfnut]

@hemlock what boat / engine did you end up with those ball settings?

[escmanaze]

Ha ha ha!!! Welcome to the club GAJ0004. I have the same problem. I haven't fixed it yet, but haven't put tons of work into fixing it yet either. Hopefully some day soon. In the meantime, I'll be following this thread for additional learning.

[mikegile]

You may want to try a control test if you haven't. I had all kinds of trouble with mine. Spent time on the phone with the guys from PP and we determined that it may be a ground issue.

 

They had me run a new ground wire to the block and it solved all issues.

[mikegile]

There is a link to the control test at Perfectpass.com under troubleshooting videos

[hemlock]

@Windsurfnut

2003 Sunsetter LXI, indmar 335 monsoon.

[GAJ0004]

I set up the background settings on 20 15 and 19. It stopped the surging, but the times were slow. On one pass at 34 mph I got a total time of 17.02.

[hemlock]

Check individual ball times.

(push menu to highlight the overall time, then push up or down, I think)

Adjust the background settings accordingly.

 

[skiboyny]

Just the down arrow for the ball times. If it's running slow there must be a deviation in the ball times see where it is and adjust it out. Remember to look at ball 2 ball 4 to use ball 1 and ball 3 adjustments. Be sure to look at smooth ski runs when you dialing it in. It takes a while to get it just right but it can be done. The ball times should be no more than one or two thouthands off on each ball.

[GAJ0004]

@hemlock, do you remember the numbers you entered when you got the times that were -.01 to -.04? On my boat the 15 20 15 or the 20 15 19 stopped the surging but my times were slow, but still within tolerance.. Almost have it I think..

 

[hemlock]

@GAJ0004

I think I remember bumping up the B1 and B4toExit times to somewhere around 50.

I really wanted to see if there would be a difference.

You could try bumping up by 5 after each pass and go from there?

[Windsurfnut]

I’d love to see any SN 196 with gt40 configurations if anyone has them.

Been struggling to get good times as well.

Turned the zbox setting up to 12 from 8 and finally got some throttle up response.

[Killer]

@Windsurfnut I have the same boat. Tsc1? Ver 9+ zbox?.

 

I played with a bunch of settings. Went back to factory and run kx- on the featherweight setting (I'm 185). 16.97-98 at 34.2 and my ski bud skis 30.4 where its also .02-.03 slow each pass as well. We both seem to Prefer Feather to either light or normal.

 

I have crew weight at 200 I think. Never change it. I might go back and try kx + and ++ to see how things differ.

 

It's a Bit hot coming into 1 for me at 34.2 then it settles in, but that could be my driver not feathering the throttle at the start, at 30.4, when I drive it seems good and each ball is +/- 2thou and around 31-31.5 coming into the gates at 30.4. Good enough for practice. My course is an old floater though so we know it's not close to RC and it's harder skiing my boat/course than an RC with newer ZO boats. Could also be my driver has only driven me & only me in a course for a few years, sparingly.

 

One thing to try is adjust the baseline settings for each weight more drastically and move the weight setting after each pass as it's easier for the driver to change the weight setting than go into the background. I don't believe there is any other difference between the weight settings than the actual values,but I could be wrong?. EG if you have each weight setting at the same values you'll have exactly the same pull. I tried this.

 

I've not played much with zbox values. I notice less difference from A1 to C1 on my boat than the newer ZO boats fwiw.

[BCM]

Check and double check your baseline calibration. I found that if my baseline was off no amount of ball setting adjustments would make it right. Also, double check the inverted/regular tach mode. I ran inverted prior to upgrading to the newer software. Worked great before, but not after. I wound up going to regular tach mode and it nearly eliminated the surging.

 

One issue I have had is people driving it like the old PP, mine settles in really quickly. The old setup had to be feathered, on a shorter setup drivers are trying to feather it and coming in slow as they are not engaging until at or just after the 55's. Once I asked them to drive like they drive ZO some of the surging was reduced.

 

I would recommend skiing behind a ZO boat (if you can) before you mess with the zbox values. I thought mine must be low because it didn't sound like ZO, turns out the ZO boats I am used to are really loud and mine is quit, at the factory setting my zbox is giving a much harder pull than the ZO boats I have been skiing behind, it doesn't sound like it, but everyone who skis behind it agrees.

 

I had great luck snapping some pictures of bouy times and settings and sending them to PP, they were able to help me get things dialed in pretty well.

[alex38]

This is a great thread, I hope @GAJ0004 and everyone else gets dialed.

 

Not to hijack but maybe it’s time to find some favorable settings for specific boat and engine set ups? Maybe the feedback can help PP with their next upgrade? I feel like they are close and would love to see them close the gap with mechanical throttles so we don’t have to get new boats (either ZO or DBW)

 

I have 02 SN CB small engine pro sport 5.0 275 HP SG version 9.12

 

I feel like the best rides were when I put the upgrade in and just ran it out of the box, this was with experienced driver

I think it is still driver dependent to a degree with my boat.

 

I have tried the spring, resetting, and BG setting adjustments.

These pics show a pass at 28 off as smooth as I can hit it (was very smooth) times and the settings for that pass

I may try Zbox cuz overall I love my boat and I may reset, recal, and remap (always a good time) and start from the beginning again!

 

 

[BraceMaker]

@alex38 what's your battery voltage and gauge display voltage on PP

[alex38]

@BraceMaker

 

[Windsurfnut]

@alex38 I think that’s a great idea to get a database going with dialed in boats and their settings.

[skiboyny]

You need to continue raising ball one. Your close on 3 ball time. You get your ball times right your overall will be right. Also make sure your baselines and typical crew weight is right. Adding Crew weight or skier weight adds RPM. The whole process can be counter intuitive to say the least. Ball times are the most important to getting the thing to feel right. Feather setting is always a bit better out of the box But there is still a hit at 2 ball look at the ball times and you will see it. It's dangerous really.

[GAJ0004]

@skiboyny, I ran mine this morning with the settings ball 1 15 ball 3 20 and ball 4 to exit 15. I had an overall time of 17.02, but each buoy time was still in tolerance, but there was no surge. I tried the 50 50 45, but it still surged. Next time out I am going to try 20 25 and 20.

 

[GAJ0004]

Once I get the normal settings dialed in I will extrapolate the difference between the factory and what I came up with on Normal 34.2 and change the other settings for 36, normal, and extra large. No problems on the lighter weight settings.

[skiboyny]

@GAJ0004 It seems like your guessing? Work on one ball at a time to get it right. Always referring to the ball times. Get 2 ball dead on with the 1 Ball adjust than move to 4 ball with the 3 ball adjust. If for example 2 ball shows +3 thousandths you know that you have to raise the 1 Ball setting until it's zero. The whole process will take some time and you can't ski enough to get it right in one session. The prevalent thing about stargazer, at least in my experiences, is there is a speed increase at 2 ball, than the thing runs away. What you have now is at least skiable without the run away.

[GAJ0004]

@skiboyny You are right, I am guessing.. All of my buoy times were slower than +.02- +.07, although ball 1 was -.01. It was also coming up slow at the end of the course. The pull felt the most constant on the 15 20 15 settings. It makes sense to try 20 20 15. I have been running 28 off when running the tests. It does not surge at 22 off.

[skiboyny]

@GAJ0004 it makes sense to try 20 at ball 1 background if 2 ball time shows a +.02 or greater. The unit will show off ball times at all line lengths if it’s not working right. If you show a ball time screen shot I’d be glad to make a recommendation but as I said it’s best to hammer away 1 ball at a time till it’s right. Start with ball 2. 20 15 20 is a good place to start because the surge will be gone.

[Windsurfnut]

Link to database

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1UsM99RDC-YlpybtqcjCv1-0ArnljSR_lNVITXSYwElA/edit?usp=sharing

[alex38]

For N 34.2 I was at 21/34/15 and tried to tweak from there but got surging, I put these numbers right back in and surging went away, times were 16.97 to 17.02. At this setting it seems slow down a little when the boat is at 4 and 5 ball.

I do have a small engine so bigger skiers have larger variances

No Zbox, not sure if that would help

[Deanoski]

The new z box program works very well

[alex38]

@Deanoski do you have mechanical throttle or DBW?

[Deanoski]

It’s in a 1990 sn 4 barrel Made it a new boat

[Windsurfnut]

@alex38 I tried those numbers (20/35/15) with zbox set at 10. Had a good 34.2MPH skier running behind the boat and the speed was pretty consistent, good zbox response and he said it felt just like the ZO boat's he normally skis behind.

On ball times it was a little fast to 3 and after 3 a little slow, but its getting awfully close now.

[alex38]

Maybe perfect pass will continue to develop the software maybe auto tune the ball settings based on times? Kind of like old PP when it would prompt to recalibrate.

Mines actually the best I’ve had it yet

[Windsurfnut]

That would be super cool to have auto calibrate, including zbox settings

[Windsurfnut]

@skiboyny and others. Have you found any relation to the adjustment values to timing?

i.e. for a .01sec adjustment, ball value needs to change by X?

[GregHind]

@alex38 my understanding is the hardware has limited memory and it is hard to fit anything else in there. If there were meaningful improvements and it allowed better upgrades in future, I'd buy a new master module. A barefoot mode would be great (no room for it at the moment). Z box autocal would be brilliant (the accelerometer should be able to calibrate the Z box settings), auto tune of ball times, feedback about what the boat is doing (for example, PP knows what is is asking the boat to do and is measuring what it actually does, it would be great if it would tell us if the boat is not responding properly so we can see what needs fixing and why), ability to connect to a personal hot spot and send info back to PP, download updates etc.

 

Maybe they could offer a new improved display with it too?

 

Although us skiers do like to complain about prices, we are prepared to spend money on our sport and I think it would be great if we gave PP the confidence to invest more into us.

[skiboyny]

@Windsurfnut that’s a great question. I have not. It’s such a moving target, that’s affected By so many variables. Water conditions, skier style, how early the pass is run to name just a few. You have to remember this is a rpm system that’s designed to over rev. (Rpm is added in anticipation) then adjusted down based on timing with a gps overlay. The calculations are made and the servo has to respond by tightening (less throttle) or letting slack out (more throttle) a lot going on. Ball 1 and ball 3 background adjustments usually require a 5 pt adjustment to get any meaningful results. The final segment will work a 1 pt. At a time adjustment. You will never get it dead on each in every pass. As long as the ball times stay within a thousandth or 2 most of the time(on a reasonably smooth pass) it will feel right and run times well in tolerance. Look at ball times every pass make a change only when you see a constant pattern with a ball time. Took me most of a summer to figure it out.

[skiboyny]

I really can’t see perfect pass spending much revamping the system. Remember the boats it services are heading for extinction.

[BraceMaker]

@skiboyny i disagree PP is almost to the end of ZO patents. If they lasted this long I can't imagine they don't want to participate in future dbw applications

[Windsurfnut]

Great insight, thanks. I would think that the zbox would take the anticipation out of the equation and ball adjustments would be unnecessary.

I’m mostly fascinated with the system and intrigued with learning the adjustments that make it better.