Baller epnault Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 Hi WI Peeps - we got a $700+ ticket last weekend for leaving our portable insta-slalom course in the lake over night. The ticket states the course was obstructing a navigable waterway. Anyone have experience fighting this? My first thought - obstruction, prove it! The good thing is we have some smart people on our ski crew and one is an attorney! The actual law is kind of weak on this specific use (slalom course) and I think "obstruction of" can be argued since it sits 5' below the waterline (PVC pipes and lines) and people tube/ski/wake-board over it all day long. It doesn't obstruct any boats or any other use on the lake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller rq0013 Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 What lake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 My inclination would be first to read up on the rules in the state. For one it looks like Wisconsin has a permit process. Do you have a permit to place the course? If no - is there a law that permits the use of un-permit removable slalom courses? My concern would be that attempting to fight a course if you didn't have a permit for the placement would be unwise. Particularly since you would be obstructing a waterway if it wasn't permitted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 2Valve Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 A good lawyer should be able to defend with common sense. Obstruction? What obstruction? The balls are floating and move when you hit 'em (like pretty much all my passes in the course.) :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller epnault Posted August 27, 2019 Author Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 I am up to speed on the rules. No permit required for a portable course but no law that suggest what the use case should be other than it needs to be removed at night. The ticket is from leaving it in overnight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Lars Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 Oof that sucks, $700 is a steep fine. I feel your pain trying to course ski on a public lake, there's always something... Was this right by the launch on your lake where everybody skis? If so, its kind of a dead end, shouldn't be much traffic there anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller LoopSki Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 i got ticket on a Northern California lake for the same offense. The sheriff watched us ski it and didn't issue the ticket until we finished pulling it out. we only had it in for about 2 hours. judge didn't understand what a slalom course was and just threw it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller PacMan Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 Yeah in order to leave it in overnight you need a permit from the DNR. My brother @ShererSkier looked into this a couple years ago when we first bought our portable course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jercrane Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 Not sure about in WI but in NH they keep a file on your course history of violations and complaints. Our permits have to be renewed each year. I know from talking to the Marine Patrol Sergeant that reviews all of the permit files in our area, you are better off paying and apologizing for the mistake. In NH our permit explicitly states it must be submerged when not in use. I believe "waterway obstruction" is the generic fine category for us if we leave the course up past our permit hours. Our course is in a dead end cove tucked in against a shoreline with no houses as well. Marine patrol doesn't really care. At least for us it's always better to just suck it up and pay it unless it is a grossly misrepresented. Like if we got ticketed during a time we didn't even have the course floating. Not saying it is that way everywhere. Might be different in your area. Public lakes are a challenge for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller UWSkier Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 Do they fine fishermen if they leave fishing markers in overnight? I don't think I've ever had a good experience with the WI DNR... They have more power than God and half of them don't know what the hell they're doing... like the one who rammed our dock once when dropping in to check on our registration. He hit it hard enough with his dumb aluminum boat that we had to re-set the legs after he left. I used to have a signed letter from Tommy Thompson's office stating that portable courses are fine to be used without any permitting, but it was so long ago I can't remember if it said anything about taking it out at night. Wish I still had that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Orlando76 Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 I’m just curious, if there’s no permit for a portable course, then how do they know who to issue the ticket to? I mean for $700 you can buy a used course and leave that one to rot. Buoys fall off all the time, maybe pick the buoys out a few at a time when nobody’s looking? Essentially the course is abandoned garbage when nobody is skiing it. Does game warden pull the course and confiscate it and post a sign, “if you want course back you gotta pay fine”? What keeps you from dropping another course in 1000’ away and say “sorry game warden it’s not my course over there with the fine. I saw Rosie O’Donnell skiing it last week”? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller iceboating Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 $700 is steep. Interesting the ticket was obstructing. From my experience I would expect unattended, obstructing possibly carried higher fine? We have been informed never to leave our course in unattended with out a permit in WI. If the ticket was issued from a game warden I would expect they received a complaint or multiple complaints. In WI I believe ski course or race course are all viewed the same. I wish you the best of luck and hope the judge views it as excessive as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BrennanKMN Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 While $700 is steep, just remember you are representing all course skiers now. I mean this with all due respect, but don't make something that isn't a huge issue into a big issue. The last thing we all need is giving the DNR a reason to cause us trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Niles Taylor Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 Does USAWS have people that can offer some advice. I thought they have an advocacy group. Half of the group skis tournaments, they must be usaws members. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ The_MS Posted August 27, 2019 Baller_ Share Posted August 27, 2019 I got a ticket in Wisconsin for driving the wrong way on a lake that is 21 miles long. I think the warden needed another case of Old Mil and was out of cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Niles Taylor Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 @MS How do you drive the wrong way on a lake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 @Niles Taylor ton of lakes formally have rules regarding the principle direction to circumnavigate. The whole state of Michigan specifies counterclockwise - so technically one should ski counter clockwise, then go out across the middle and resume instead of reversing. In application... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller epnault Posted August 27, 2019 Author Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 Yooper Native Here @BraceMaker Good grief. All this time I thought the ole man just made that shit up. Ha ha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ The_MS Posted August 27, 2019 Baller_ Share Posted August 27, 2019 Have to do a 21 mile loop to pick up a downed skier I guess. Strange people in that state. Drinking paint thinner and watching Packer games keeps them inside too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jercrane Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 @Niles Taylor I actually tried to reach out to USAWS a couple years to get help with understanding the laws around water rights and getting our slalom course permit restored. I'm a little sad to say they provided no help at all. I think this is definitely something they should help with if growth is an objective. sigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 @epnault just point out that if they want to follow the rules they have to troll that direction too. Can be hard to run the tiller and cast backhand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klindy Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 @jercrane I completely agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller swc5150 Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 Dang man that sucks! Things must've changed over the years, as the DNR guy that visited us on the chain about our Insta said we could leave it in for 7 days at a time. Did this happen at your lake? Of course, this is the same WI DNR that planted a giant log fish crib in front of our dock, that was about 8'x8'x8', and just barely poked above the waterline. It could've easily tore up a number of props and lower units had my brother and I not dragged it out deep with the SN. Talk about an obstruction! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MDB1056 Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 Classic Wisconsin. Lake cops are bad.... What lake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller teammalibu Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 @MS you know the difference between a Cheese Head and a Dick Head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller teammalibu Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 @MS why the Minnesota border of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ironhorse Posted August 27, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 27, 2019 The police on our lake in Canada stopped to check me for safety gear and talked about skiing the course we were parked beside years ago. I told him it was a different course, as I put this one in and offered him a pull after his shift. He declined, but definitely no fine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emwheaton Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 That's a bummer, but good to know what the fine actually is. We're also in WI and have an EZ slalom course that we put out most weekends during the summer. 95% of the time we take it out at night (only to put it right back in the next morning), but there have been a couple times that we've left it in overnight. Just a couple months ago we left it in overnight on a remote section of shoreline in front of state forest land (not our usual location). We figured no one would care because it wasn't in front of or next to any one's property and was in probably the most remote corner of the chain of lakes we're on.... We came back the next morning to find someone had cut the main line at one of the boat guide loops and dragged an entire section of the arms/bouys onto the shore...as frustrating as that situation was, I think I would still take it over a $700 fine though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Jetsetr Posted August 28, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 28, 2019 I also have an EZ Slalom course I splash in WI. It is pretty clear that it must be removed daily... Permits are required for permanent courses. HOWEVER, I think it’s worth fighting the dollar amount in court. And I’m not sure what your “due process” is in this matter. Might have to lawyer up in this case... If you had a reason to leave the course in (sudden bad storm, or other issue) I think any reasonable person would either drop it or reduce the fine to a more manageable amount. A warning in my opinion would be more than enough. However, common sense and reason has disappeared from our society. JMHO.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emwheaton Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 I've thought about petitioning the DNR to see if they're willing to change the requirement that temporary courses are removed at the end of the day and changing it to 48 hours. I don't see what the downside would be for the state and it would benefit everyone who puts out a portable course. I'd be willing to bet that the majority of people who put out a portable course do so primarily on the weekends and just want to leave it in the water overnight on Saturday. I have little to no faith that would ever pass (common sense and reason), but I think it may be worth a shot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller epnault Posted August 28, 2019 Author Baller Share Posted August 28, 2019 Thanks for all the comments. There was a verbal warning last year and we knew the risk of leaving it in. But $700 fine is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jhughes Posted August 28, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 28, 2019 When I drop the course in our lake up north (way up north) it's not well received. In general people want to fish, pontoon around, and kayak and whatnot, and claiming 2000ft of the lake with buoys is a big request and imposition. I try to get it in and out as early and quickly as possible, I'd never leave it in. I remember one time I had just dropped it in and a small rowboat was motoring past it, the guy cussing about the course wildly to himself, not knowing it was so easy to hear across the lake. He was absolutely furious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Rednucleus Posted August 28, 2019 Baller_ Share Posted August 28, 2019 Uh oh warned and did it anyway. IMHO pay the fine, sorry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller oldjeep Posted August 28, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 28, 2019 You can get a big fine in MN as well. We had a sheriff visit us a few years back after leaving one in overnight at a rental place. Said we had to drop it or pull it out every night. That was the same year that we spent 2 or 3 days trying to find the course after we pulled all the balls and let it drop ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emwheaton Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Yeah if you were warned, you don't have much of an argument, except the crime doesn't fit the punishment. Pretty sure you can be arrested for multiple DUIs in WI and end up with less in fines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skierjp Posted August 28, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 28, 2019 A friend of mine had a course in Maryland and one of the stipulations was, when the course was floating someone had to be at the course. One skier floated the course then went to lunch leaving the course unattended. The punishment was they could not use the course for 1 month. I would rather pay a fine! FYI, be very careful how hard you rock the boat. I would maybe let your attorney friend talk to them on a fact finding mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Orlando76 Posted August 28, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 28, 2019 I’m still confused how they know who a course belongs too if it’s not permitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller oldjeep Posted August 28, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 28, 2019 Well they wait until joe offender shows up the next day and they give you a ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Orlando76 Posted August 29, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 29, 2019 @oldjeep Seems to be impossible to hold in court. The only thing possibly proven is there’s a course in the water. Do they have joe on camera putting course in? Is it the responsibility of a random skier to do their homework and make sure joe’s course was properly permitted and legally installed before skiing it? How would Johnny Appleseed the skier know joe offender left the course in all night? Unless Cathy the Nosey Neighbor or Bobby the popo took picture of Joe Offender putting THAT course in and THAT course up at night, I can’t wrap my brain around who’s at fault or what can be proven unless there was admission of guilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emwheaton Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 @Orlando76 in WI, a slalom course in the water is a rarity. I guarantee he's the only house on his lake that puts one in, and if he's been putting it in for a couple years now everyone on the lake knows who the course belongs to, especially if the DNR warned him last year. They aren't exactly discreet...Like Jhughes said, courses here typically are not well received by the majority and I'd bet there is someone on his lake that is watching his every move waiting for them to break some rule to report them to the DNR. We have at least a couple people like that on our lake. So they know with 98% certainty that its his course, probably have some kind of proof that it was left in overnight, and they've already got the ticket... so what is he going to do, lie under oath in court? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller MNshortliner Posted August 29, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 29, 2019 I believe that in Wisconsin if there is a lake association they can apply any rules to their lake and it becomes law? I met a guy, he said they had a rule no skiing until 9am and no skiing after like 6pm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Jetsetr Posted August 29, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 29, 2019 Lake Associations have no governing power for bodies of water in Wisconsin. They CAN implement a tax district for the the lake. The DNR and Township (usually the township governs the body of water) in which the lake is located in have jurisdiction. We just found out that our lake was closed by the township due to high water almost all summer. Ends up the township that claimed they had an ordinance allowing lake closure did not have an ordinance thus no power to close the lake. A resort on the lake lost over 100K in revenue due to the lake closure. Looks like there is a class action lawsuit against the township and board members coming down the pike. Normally board members are not subject to litigation, but in this case they willfully and knowingly acted inappropriately. As of now it kinda looks like the township is going to have to get the big boy checkbook out...will see... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller epnault Posted August 29, 2019 Author Baller Share Posted August 29, 2019 @Orlando76 Spot on man. Me and the neighbor each have a course. We basically only ski when the course is in and the course is in a lot. We know we have some haters of skiers on the lake. They know who we are by first and last name. It is going to happen everywhere in the public world -some people want the world to work they think it should. I see all kinds of stupid (illegal crap) things done on our lake all the time but I am not going to turn someone in. We broke the law, no doubt, however weak it is but the fine range is $10-$500. They are charging us way more than this. https://law.justia.com/codes/wisconsin/2017/chapter-30/section-30.15/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted August 29, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 29, 2019 @epnault I'm sure you can take that tactic. If I were a DNR guy dragged to court over that ticket I'd ding you for each ball and say you got off easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Orlando76 Posted August 29, 2019 Baller Share Posted August 29, 2019 Not knowing the population density of the county you live in nor the court arrangement but if you choose to fight it this is how it’s gonna go: -The lowest level magistrate type judge will get this case along with ~75 other fine related cases that day. Mostly dirty foots who didn’t mow their grass this month and got fined and there’s undeniable picture and record etc. to prove it. Judge gonna spend ~8 minutes on your case. -DNR will show up because he has nothing better to do, he’s proven this already. If he doesn’t, case is tossed. -Unless there’s photographic evidence everything is circumstantial. Doesn’t matter there’s two guys that regularly ski the lake. Photographic Evidence you put course in then evidence you leaving course and evidence course was left overnight. Only likely way this was done if neighbor has a REALLY good security camera. Willing to bet once inThe water all our courses pretty much look the same. -neighbor would have to testify. -all parties involved will be given a window to arrive, say Monday, 8-12. How much of a hard-on does complaining neighbor have to take the day off and sit in a court lobby pacing back and fourth all day or sit on a wooden bench with a bunch of undesirables? -doubtful judge gives .02 -and as mentioned what were the weather conditions day course was left in? Mother Nature when on a water way trumps all laws. Does evidence show favorable conditions? Remember, OJ walked and so did Casey Anthony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MISkier Posted August 29, 2019 Baller_ Share Posted August 29, 2019 When I got my last speeding ticket (in a school zone) about 15-20 years ago, I went in to fight it. The officer did not show and it was tossed. You could try that and, if the officer does show and you aren’t planning on any perjury, then use that time to plead for mercy on the amount of the fine. Of course, you are investing your time for this, so you have to weigh that. The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller epnault Posted September 24, 2019 Author Baller Share Posted September 24, 2019 Our ski partner showed up for a plea hearing (not guilty) last week and then today for the pre-trail. The prosecution needed to prove that the slalom course was obstructing a navigable waterway. They threw out the ticket and the fine. What was revealed, not a surprise, is that many people are complaining about our amount of skiing and the course. The sad thing is based on some of the complaints we believe it may be people we call friends on the lake :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ MISkier Posted September 24, 2019 Baller_ Share Posted September 24, 2019 @epnault, many thanks to you and your ski buddy for taking a stand on this issue. The precedent that was set in finding that a slalom course does not obstruct a navigable waterway is huge. The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller epnault Posted September 24, 2019 Author Baller Share Posted September 24, 2019 I am not a legal person but since it was thrown out I don't think we accomplished that. We did learn our lesson and will be pulling it daily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted September 24, 2019 Baller Share Posted September 24, 2019 @epnault if someone had a way to reference it - it is atleast a case in which someone could show that they did not show that it was a barrier to navigation. The last sentence is exactly why we don't straight pipe ski boats - doesn't matter if your neighbors are friends eventually you'll piss them off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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