Thinking of release binding

[KRoundy]

Hi Ballers,

 

I'm looking for some advice / experience with releasable binding systems.

 

First - a story: I ended my season on Friday, November 8th. I was free skiing at 34 MPH at 28 off. Things were going great and the water was cold but calm. I was concentrating on my pre-turn / counter and not paying too much attention to what was happening anywhere else when I took a very hard out-the-front offside fall at the second wake. It happened fast and I hit really hard. As I rose back to the surface I started to take inventory. My left side rib cage hurt, I might have slightly knocked the wind out of me and the right side of my face stung like crazy (I think from smacking the water). I was able to waive my arm to tell my friends in the boat I was alive and breathing, but by the time I did that they had TORN back to me since it was an obviously bad fall. I floated there for a minute getting my bearings, took my ski off and climbed back into the boat.

 

15 minutes later after one of my friends skied I started to think, "Why does my left knee hurt?" By the time we were done with skiing my knee was screaming at me. I spend the weekend with ice, elevation and ibuprofen. I went to doctor on the following Tuesday fearing the worst but he diagnosed a left MCL sprain. No tears. No surgery needed. 4 weeks of rest, minimum. Whew, thank you, Lord. But, my skiing season is over. I pulled my boat and am winterizing it this weekend.

 

I really can't remember much about the fall but it obviously stressed/twisted my front (left) knee. My ski did not come off in the fall.

 

All of that is a long preamble to the realization that I think I want to get a releasable binding setup for my 2020 ski season. I have skied with double boots for my entire life and I don't want to go away from that. Through some research think this is what I have discovered is possible, but I want some advice/ help on what to do:

 

1. Go with a Reflex or HO release hard shell front binding along with a loose-ish wrap or bungee (Radar) binding in the back. Does anyone ski with a Reflex/HO system with two hard shell boots? If so, I have not seen it.

2. Hard shell front with a Rube Goldberg type heal-cup setup in the back. I've seen photos on BOS somewhere with this setup, but I'm not sure where they come from?

3. Stay with my current lace-up (Radar) bindings but mount them on a MOB system. I don't see this setup "out in the wild" nearly as much as the Reflex/HO system. Maybe it is just where I live?

 

Are there other options? I've also heard that if I go with the hard shell system that I should expect my skiing to get worse before it gets better. I'm OK with that plan since I won't be skiing again until the Spring anyhow.

 

Some other stats that might be pertinent: 52 yrs. old. Current best in the course is 4 bouys at 32 MPH at 15 off. I've lost a bunch of weight in 2019 and am down to 225 lbs. I ski on a 71" 2015 Radar Senate Lithium. expect to be right at about 200 lbs when I start skiing again, so I'm going to be on a new (to me) smaller ski in the Spring as well.

 

Any advice on what is the best binding setup for me, or where I can go to find out more, is sincerely appreciated.

[Nando]

@KRoundy , what bindings do you use now?

[lakeside7455]

If you don't want to do hard shells, I use the Radar Vector with aluminum plate as an option. 2019 of later. Earlier vectors used crap material. They changed the material to a Carbitex, which is much better. I come right out of the boot on any hard crashes, yet they gives enough support for course skiing, and the most comfortable boots out there. No more foot throbbing from rubber tight bindings.

[BlueSki]

@twhisper is, or at least was, running a double reflex. There used to be a video where he discussed it, but that was before he released his training website. I think @skidawg runs them as well, I recall him mentioning it as I made the switch.

 

I run the double white cuff tight across the foot and loose at the cuff. I followed Caldwell's suggestion for the looseness at the upper cuff. I increased the looseness from where I was as I gained comfort with the feeling. I am now to the point where the fit is as if I am almost running an R-style but with a release. My releases have been consistent and always both feet.

 

 

[david_quail]

I had the exact same fall as you (2nd wake heading to offside LFF). Knee felt funny but not terrible. Actually went home and did a 45 minute spin. But later that night I could barely bend my knee. Diagnosed with a very bad, grade 2 MCL tear. 6 months before it started to feel close to normal.

I was in hard shells releasables which did release. Just a bit too late I assume. Another buddy of mine ruptured his Achilles at the end of this season in a releasable Reflex.

 

I do quite like the bindings, and am guessing they do prevent some injury, but that’s my long winded way of saying they aren’t fool proof.

[LOTW]

I have been using double Reflex for years. I felt that my feet were moving around too much and I wanted more connection with the ski. Since then I have been super happy with how they release. My ski partner was on a binding with bungees that did not release, ended his season mid August. He has invested in Double Reflex for next season. They might not be for everyone but I don't think I'll ever change to anything else.

[david_quail]

Also wrt getting worse before it gets better.

I switched at the beginning of the season when everything feels foreign. After 3 sets or so I was back to my prior seasons level of skiing. It wasn’t as big of an adjustment as I thought it would be.

That said, it was only my second or 3rd year of skiing ... so it was a new trick but the dog wasn’t THAT old.

[owennibley]

Sorry to hear about your crash. It hurts, I know. Last season I had a crash that resulted in a broken front ankle (RFF). I was using HO vMAX bindings and I had them on way too tight. My foot didn't release. That winter I bought the Reflex supershell 4.0 with a rear toe plate. Man... it took a long time to get used to it. Not sure if it was my injury or me still be scared or what but it wasn't until mid-July that I got back into the swing of things.

 

My current setup is Reflex supershell 4.0 in the front with a VERY lose xMAX in the back (I couldn't do the RTP). I have crashed hard about 3-5 times and each time the binding has released perfectly. I am glad I switched. Although it does not prevent 100% injury, it will mitigate injury in certain crashes. I would've easily paid the 500ish for the Reflex bindings to not have broken my ankle.....

[TustinTom]

Sorry to hear about that Kevin, bummer. Silver lining is that it happened at the end of your season and you have the winter to determine your next move.

 

About the bindings, there are numerous binding posts covering the safety topic to those who just want to tinker/change. The basic message seems to be the same, no system is full proof.

 

Our ski/bindings/age/weight/ability are roughly the same. I am a "all in" guy. I think I would freak out if I started losing my ski (or anticipated losing my ski) in hard falls. I've safely "ejected" out of my double boot Radar Carbitex a few times, with the BOA/bottom portion as tight as I can get it.

 

In an effort to focus my weight on my front foot, I have thought hard about #1, HO/w RTP, only to be told by no less than 3 teaching pro's, great in theory but you may spend a bit of time getting used to the set-up and with the little ski time I get, never really get comfortable. In addition, I think my weight would be at the high end of the release point

 

Let us/me know what direction you go. I may just chock this fall up to a "tough break"

[ScottScott]

I can't recommend the MOB enough. Some of the other injuries mentioned above on reflex or other systems that only release out the front, may have released pain free in the MOB which releases in pretty much all directions (in those cases likely a twisting fall.) Check with Mike to see if your current lace up boot is appropriate on the MOB, if so there is no adjustment to a new boot. It would be a good time to consider going to a hybrid rear (like the HRT,) instead of purchasing release for front and rear.

[KRoundy]

Thanks all, good comments so far. The bindings I'm on now are a 2016 Radar Profile. It is a closed toe dual-lace-up system with very firm no-stretch lower laces with bungee-style upper laces. The Profile is not a high-end boot (it's pretty flexible). I'm curious about the idea of newer carbitex bindings releasing better. I actually keep the inside of my Profiles slicked up with some silicone gel, with the idea that I can come out easier.

 

From what I have read about the MOB system I would need to go with non-bungee bindings to really plant me into the setup. I will reach out to Mike.

 

I know that nothing is full-proof. What I need to do is stack properly and not do that out-the-front thing! But this sort of freaked me out and I want to be thoughtful as I approach skiing for 2020 in a few months.

[ScottScott]

I have the Vapor on my MOB. The Vapor also comes with a bungee top lace. For use on the MOB you just want to replace the bungee with a non-stretch lace.

[KRoundy]

@ScottScott So you have a Vapor front with a HRT rear? How solid/connected does the MOB system feel?

[ScottScott]

@KRoundy Yes, thats my setup. The boot sits very firmly on the ski. If anything it feels more solid and connected being strapped on tight than without the release where you would be leaving it looser, especially the top laces. No guessing about whether you've left the boot loose enough to come out.....crank that boa on down and tighten the top lace nice and snug.

[Dacon62]

Have never used a releasable system and can only offer these comments. While any system is not fool proof I have subscribed to the theory that because the Vapor Boots have a removable liner there is another slip point involved in the event of a forward type fall.

With the Vapor on the foot can come out of the liner or the liner can come out with the foot. In order for the Profile boots to release your foot has to come out of the boot because the liner is not removable. Assuming that both boots are tightened identically and to a safe amount of tension I feel that it is easier to come out of the Vapor boots because there is less friction between the boot and the liner than there is between your heel and the liner (Profile).

[jhughes]

Going that hard OTF free-skiing is uncommon and as such focusing on the binding or release system is perhaps asking the wrong question(s). You said it yourself that it's a technique concern and I'd agree. As described you're really at the beginning stages of your slalom journey, just starting to get into the course. To some degree this sort of stuff is going to happen at this stage. For now I wouldn't change anything equipment-wise and just focus on water time. At this stage in the game that's what's going to make the biggest difference. A binding change at this level may lead to more OTFs, just like any potential equipment change this early on.

[Deanoski]

get Reflex and don't look back!!

 

[lpskier]

Last I heard, @twhisper was skiing in a Fogman set up.

[Deanoski]

Twhisher has ski bulk reflex doubles white reflex fb rtp Goode double Velcro

Goode reflex release fb 1/2 rear hard shell I would love to talk to him about boots and feel He has skied more different set ups then anyone I can think of

[skiinxs]

I tried to switch to Reflex a couple years ago but couldn't make the switch, actually couldn't even get up on the ski. I then went back to my double Radar Vapors, but was really not confident they would release if needed. I have run the latest version each year for a few years but never came out of them in any crashes but also hadn't had a really bad crash. I was getting more and more concerned that they wouldn't release if needed and was running my laces really, really loose, which I am sure was making them underperform. About mid-summer I decided to buy the MOB system. They were pretty pricey, but still way less then the deductible on my health insurance. I used my existing bindings, just now run them tight so they won't try to release. The great news is that there was no adjustment after setting them up. The ski felt the same. It was a little heavier, but that doesn't seem to be a problem. Toward the end of the season I had a brutal crash, worst one in many years. Stuffed the tip of the ski and went out the front. I think that is the hardest type of crash to get a release. Although I had the wind knocked out of me pretty bad, I walked away from it with no injuries. I actually didn't even realize the ski had released until I saw it floating about 50 feet away. That was my one and only test, hopefully there are no more crashes like that coming up. Now I can say it was money well spent as I am sure I would not have walked away from it if I had not put the release system on the ski. Years ago I spent quite a few years on the Goode hardshells, skied with them fine, just hated the raw fingers from trying to get all of the velcro off when replacing annually. I found out the hard way that they would prerelease on me if I tried to let them go a second year, and I had the whole plate completed covered in dual lock.

[vtmecheng]

I run the MOB with the HO xMax in the front, RTP rear. First, it released 3 times this year and each were needed. I'm working on that form problem and doing much better. Second, this isn't the most aggressive setup but it's really comfortable so for my level I'm really happy with it. Good luck in finding something that makes you comfortable to ski your hardest and have fun.

[WaterSkier12]

2nd MOB, wife and son have them on trick and slalom

[Jaypro]

I am another one for the MOB system. I switched after an ACL reconstruction

[MattP]

I've been on the MOB for over 5 years and love the system. Give @mmosley899 a call and he can get you sorted out!

[blakeyates]

@Gloersen, why do you say "use the MOB and not the older version OB4?" I'm still on the OB4; just curious?

[BraceMaker]

If nothing else the new MOB sole plate which will snap right into an OB4 is way more stable on the ski.

[KRoundy]

@skiinxs Are you on a dual-boot setup? How much more weight are we talking about?

[mmosley899]

@KRoundy the total weight of a double boot MOB system is very similar to a double high wrap rubber boot setup. There would only be a slight increase in weight to your Radar boot setup. It will in no way impact skiing performance.

[Horton]

I have to back up @mmosley899 on this. Worrying about a little extra binding weight is a boondoggle.

[skiinxs]

@KRoundy yeah, what @mmosley899 said:) Minor increase in weight, couldn't tell any difference in the way the ski performed with exactly the same binding location as before. To me that is what I was looking for, no performance downside with a big increase in safety. I am using dual Radar Carbotex boots. I am thinking about ordering another one for my trick ski. I think I know where I put that ski a couple years ago:)

[aupatking]

Mike has done tremendous improvements to the plate system since the OB4 days and even a great deal this year since getting his own CNC. The new plate is strengthened and even has an integrated micro-adjustment built into the plate system. With the MOB you won’t have to get used to a different boot, but, yes, you would want to move to an R-style or HRT type of rear boot. You will not find better service anywhere and from a guy who skis at a high level in the system he is selling so he is personally invested in continual improvement. From a safety standpoint, I don’t think there’s anything on the market better.

[KRoundy]

Good input. I won't worry about weight!

Has anyone else tried a hardshell and just had it not work for them? At my level of skiing are hardshells a crazy idea?

[ToddA]

@KRoundy I have the HO Syndicate hardshell front, Wiley's highwrap rear. I really like the setup, and feels like a very safe option as I have not had any awkward issues with it. It would be a very viable option.

[aupatking]

@KRoundy it’s just my opinion but, I think skiers at your level may get the most advantage from releasable binding systems as OTF type falls are more common for skiers good enough to go hard, but lacking some foundational technique to avoid these falls

[wawaskr]

When considering Reflex hardshell, how does one choose between black shell, white shell, or super shell?

[Wish]

Just bolt it on and go ski ?

 

[Jordan]

What could go wrong? Lol

[Deanoski]

@Wish is that your set up or Joul’s ?

 

What boot is that

[Wish]

Joel's.

[BraceMaker]

Black is traditional if you want to use it on two skis for trick and slalom a good choice.

 

White has more cuff mobility

 

Super shell is overall a stiffer boot.

 

Joel's comments on his boot are funny stuff.

[Deanoski]

Roxa AT boot ?

[KRoundy]

@Wish Yikes!! Yeah, what could go wrong... ?

[mmosley899]

@Jordan we know what could go wrong! Thankfully he is skiing again now. He could mount that boot on a MOB release and be safer!

[aupatking]

Damn @Wish that thing looks scary. As to your question @wawaskr there are a couple discussions about the boot differences in the forum and @BraceMaker has summed up the basics pretty well, but for me it was simply, which one fit my foot the best. I really liked my black cuff setup but that boot hurt my foot. The XXL just gave me a little too much “slop” and the XL just too small that my foot cramped. The XL Supershell just fits perfectly. That all goes back to why I like the MOB: any boot I like works just fine, and can go to any MOB plate on any ski, slalom, trick, even jump. With an extra boot plate, you could share a ski with someone with a different boot size too, so long as you could share the same size rear..maybe ARTP?

[thager]

@aupatking So what boot did you end up on then "Baby Bear"?

[aupatking]

Supershell. @thager ”Baby Bear”?

[BraceMaker]

@mmosley899 if you watch his video on on youtube he does a good bit of comment - sounds like maybe his old boot broke in the crash at worlds? Wonder if the boot broke before or after the foot broke. @JoelHowley

[thager]

@aupatking Was referencing Goldilocks and the Three Bears. Nobody got my joke?

[Iski61]

Following an ankle fracture and 3 months in a boot and 3 months of pt I am looking at bindings. Any thoughts on double hard shell or hard shell front with r-style rear on a MOB system.

[EFW]

If you have a ski with Fogman inserts - if you are careful you can mount a MOB release plate and use the original Fogman inserts instead of using tape. I think I had the larger Fogman plate. And I was able to use the binding placement that I wanted. It just worked out for me due to where I like my bindings because there wasn't much I could do fore or aft. If you install the inserts even if you weren't using fogman style releases then you would be able to adjust the plate pretty much wherever you wanted.