Is The Ski Nautique An Epic Fail

[ozski]

Carbon Pro gets taken out of play and the market gets served up an expensive new model, Nautique hedges a bit by keeping the 200 alive. Mastercraft jumps into huge gap in market with new model that tracks well and looks great and delivers better value. Result, we will see more MC's at ski schools and tournaments and more skiers will respond by buying MC and so it goes. Well played MC and yeah the news for gorilla biscuit Malibu is all bad right now... I know a couple of guys with Malibu tattoos that won't go near one.

[Luzz]

@ozski maybe the one build down under (although a lot of friends used it at French Malibu last year and did great). We bought two new 2020 TXis with their new engine and to me they ski insanely well, drive great, trick and jump great… ZO, rpms, fuel gauge, and a physical key. A boat has to work and ski very well. To me all three brands are doing boats that ski well.

 

Is the new Ski Nautique an epic fail? Not at all.

Is it bad for the sport? It could have been, but luckily MC and Malibu are not following the same model…

[UWSkier]

TXi gets a bad rap because most of them are gawky looking and the PCM engines were dogs when hot, but the tourney results behind them are on par with the others and I've not seen a lot of complaining about driving or tracking.

[ozski]

@Luzz I don't disagree with your comments and yes our local Malibu product is / was different to the rest of the world and I'm yet to meet anyone that loves it.. I'm not even questioning how well the new boats drive or ski, my personal favourite to ski behind is the new Ski Nautique. The question is product market fit and I would hate to be selling Nautique right about now because the door got left wide open and MC has more than a foot in.. If I spend $140k plus on the Nautique the chances of getting one in a tournament out here are pretty low.

[Jmoski]

I believe Nautique changing their promo program and thus radically shrinking down the # of promos is why you see fewer Nautiques in tournaments and also hurts the supply of one year old boats to buy.

 

Separately - I priced a new 2020 SN and it was (after discounts) $8k more than a similarly equipped 2021 MC, so in the end the $$ difference is not as big as people think. Is the SN profitable at the price I was given, who knows.

 

The funny part was the Nautique dealer actually included an advertisement for a “low monthly payment“ of - $750.00 (read the fine print: 5% interest for 15 years!) I almost fell over laughing when I saw that.

[Buxrus]

@markn : thank you for making my point. Your judgement of me and my questionable spending is exactly what I was speaking of. I’m financially accountable to 2 people and one of them isn’t you.

[GSchmid]

My first boat was an '86 Mastercraft. Not the greatest in terms of fit or finish (or spray), but I didn't think the wake could get any better.... until I skied the '02 Nautique, which quickly became my second boat. 18 years later, it's hard to imagine a better slalom ride than the 196. Plus the driving experience (tracking, visiblity, handling) and reliability made me a Nautique Lifer. However, I'll be honest, the '21 Mastercraft may be enough to get me to remove my tattoo :). No moving parts under the waterline, reasonable interior space, tunable rudder, rear storage, plus the open bow possibility for the 1 week of the year I want it...

 

I actually love the look of the new Ski Nautique; the Black and Red jackkrash boat is gorgeous. But it's too big of a boat to feel that small inside, and the slalom ride is not an upgrade from the 196. So, hard to justify the premium over the MC.

 

 

[dave2ball]

@Jmoski the 21 prostar was that priced out with a std 6L or a 6.2L? I ask because the prostar does not use the 6.2 in promo boats. The 6.0 is the standard motor.

If you are comparing both boats with the bigger motor which Nautique uses in there promo boats then yes 8K is not very much of a difference.

If you price a MC with standard promo equipment vs. a nautique with standard promo equipment I would be surprised if the difference was 8K for retail sale.

 

[Orlando76]

 

[jjackkrash]

The Ski promo boats use the 6.2l, but it is not the base motor. The standard/base motor in the Ski is the 6.0l; the 6.2L is a the second upgrade after the 5.3l. The 6.2l is a big upcharge in both boats.

[brody]

New nautique is fugly. Way too much sea deck

[Jmoski]

@dave2ball - ZR4 6.0 liter engine. Could be the SN had a more expensive trailer, can’t remember what was on the MC.

[LeonL]

Epic fail? Maybe not now, but a few years down the road, past warranty and a lot of that technology goes! Big bucks! A few more years and "oh, we're sorry but we don't have micro- tuner parts anymore". Come back and tell me then how happy you are. Someone mentioned "quiet"? What the hey!

[NikolG]

Ugly? It looks awesome! I think the older you are the less likely you are to like the style though. It looks cool and modern to me. I’m not a fan of the plain jane boats and colors, give me all the bling ?

[ReallyGottaSki]

huh. I don't lust for one like i have for decades. maybe thats a barometer

[markn]

@Buxrus Stating "perhaps we differ in the definition of responsible spending" is a statement, not a judgement. Everyone has a different definition of value. I do not see enough value in slightly improved tracking to spend $100k. You evidently do. Good for you.

[Golfguy]

Epic fail? If you consider taking a very good ski boat say the SN196 and slowly turning it into the Ski Natique of today, then yes epic fail. MC has done a superb job in listening to their market and responding with a product that meets and exceeds the ideals and demands of the same. If there were some advice for the president of SN it may be: call your R&D department in and say you and you are fired, the rest of you go and brush off the CP hull and brand it SN. Then sell it well equipped for $80,000 with dial gauges. Allow for optioning it up with whatever the customer wants. Heck you could put a solid gold shift knob on it, and it would still sell for less than $100k

 

That is my rant

 

[swc5150]

@Jmoski What options did you spec out the PS with to land within $8k of an SN? Base vs base retail is a +$45k swing for the SN, and that's before adding a trailer.

[escmanaze]

@Golfguy I would only disagree with you in firing R&D Folks. Typically the folks in the marketing department are the ones who are making the decision to not listen to the customer. R&D guys are just the geeky engineers tasked with engineering what the marketing folks told them to create. In this case, it's the marketing folks that told them to create the wrong thing.

 

At least that's how it goes in most companies I've had experience with. Obviously every company is different.

 

My main point here is just that the person that should be fired is the guy who decided that this boat was the goal. Not the guy(s) who were handed the goal sheet and told to engineer all the details to get there.

 

And yes, the other guy who should be fired is the guy who decided to discontinue the CP.

 

[Fast351]

I think the hull, while maybe not for me with all the angles, can be toned down with the appropriate gel coat colors. This is one of the tugs at AWSA midwest, and I really liked the colors on it. The interior similarly had navy/aqua colors and it was beautiful.

 

Of course I don't think I'm buying one any time soon because, well, I wouldn't see much benefit over my '01 SN, but it is a pretty boat in its own way:

 

 

[LoopSki]

I think that they saw the popularity of the design of the G series wake boat barges and thought that putting some of those design features into the Skeenah teak would be a hit. Like Steve posted earlier it appeals probably to a younger demographic.my 9 yo son loves it I personally don’t like it and wouldn’t care how good at skis or tracks, I’m a crappy skier anyway. I like my boats like I like my women, pretty !

[h2onhk]

 

 

 

 

[vtmecheng]

Just a thought: Budget ski boats didn't sell great, or at least the margins weren't favorable enough, so were discontinued. What we have now are great skiing boats that include a ton of features like touch screens and micro-tuners. These are fantastic for someone who wants a new boat and can afford it. Those who can't afford it have the great option to buy a used boat with a nice wake that will run for many years, often with few problems that really sideline the boat. These used boats have fewer electronics and what they do have are usually not horrible to fix (I know there are exceptions). Here's my point, in 10 years the boats of today will be sold used but the electronics are likely to be glitching, sensors failing, and touch screens dying. At that time the buyer will have to select from a new boat, a 10 year old boat that likely needs expensive replacement of electronics, or a really old boat. Maybe that will be when the budget ski boat becomes popular again, when skiers want something newer than 20 years old, don't want the headaches and upkeep of the 2020 models, and can't afford $100k for a new boat. Maybe I'm wrong and these boats will hold up to many years of heat, cold, water, and vibration/shock but that seems like a tall order for those kinds of electronics.

 

More on topic, I really don't like the look or price of the new Nautique. If I had the cash it would go to Mastercraft, but I don't so neither company should care about my opinion.

[Jmoski]

@swc5150 - I compared the new 2020 SN for sale near me with the one now under deposit at action MC in FL.

 

https://www.actionwater.com/inv/2021-mastercraft-prostar-polk-city-fl-9nac7/

 

Price out the door (trailer, deckadence floor, heater, ski racks, rear seats) on the MC was 92k.

 

Technically the price was even closer as I forgot the CC dealer was offering an additional $5k discount on top of the existing $25k markdown that was on the spec sheet. The new 2019 SN was even less, but it was hideous from a color configuration IMHO.

 

Of course, this is not a 2021 SN, so it’s not an exact match.

 

Regardless both have way to high of a price tag to justify upgrading from my 196...

 

 

[swc5150]

Sorry for the thread hijack of sorts, but that '21 MC pricing seems strange...at least the $114k MSRP part? Taking the $75k boat/trailer base MSRP, then adding all those options puts it at a $92k retail, which is what they have listed as "sale" price.

 

There was an '20 SN promo at our local dealer that had an original build sheet retail of $149k. That was an eye popper for me.

[Jmoski]

@swc5150 - well, if you upgrade the engine to the 6.2 liter and put a double axle trailer under that could make up much of the difference between the promo you looked at and the one I got the spec sheet for. MSRP on the 2020 SN was $126k with the trailer.

[Golfguy]

escmanaze Agree, just a tonuge in cheek remark about firing.

 

[JAS]

Futuristic or Reto?

[DanE]

@vtmecheng What's so fantastic about touch screens and microtuners? Touch screens is nothing more than an integrated Ipad in the dash, does that justify ski tugs msrp 120 k+? Ridiculous.

Great tracking, soft wakes, low noise is what skiers need or what?

[Cnewbert]

@swc5150 as it was explained to me, the $74,995 price for the ‘21 is not the MSRP for the boat, stereo and trailer, but rather MAP pricing — Minimum Advertised Price. From the MAP price you’d add all your options, freight and dealer prep, but there would be no further discount on that total.

[brettmainer]

Where I believe SN failed is that it needs complicated micro-tuners in the first place, and even with them, the boat has a worse slalom wake than either the MC or the Malibu. To me, that means it wasn’t the best hull design.

 

To be clear, the wake is by no means a bad wake and is great at -35 and shorter. It is just not a wake worth paying $20k more for unless you are a high end, money is no object, trick skier, in which case the new SN is clearly the best boat.

[Golfguy]

JAS Is this the 2021 SN? And is that the marketing department in the back?

[markn]

20 year loan @ $529 per month for a boat?

[JAS]

@Golfguy every product has a target market.

[vtmecheng]

@DanE I don't get your post. I don't think there's anything great about touchscreens and would prefer a boat without one. All I'm saying is that at some point these boats will be 10+ years old and the touchscreen tablets will likely start failing from the thermal cycles and moisture. Then we get to try and find the boat specific replacement, it's not like we can just swap it out with the newest iPad. At that point, a lower price point new boat may be more desirable than a used boat with electronics failure.

[scorban2]

Sounds like I should start a business in 5 ish years to refurb electronics in ski (and wake) boats.

 

Not an expert on boat manufacturing, but I work on electronics, including touch screens, on equipment thats a bit higher volume than ski boats, but way less than automotive. Almost everything we use is automotive based, to take advantage of their volume pricing. Sure, we customize a few things to standup to our application, but the technology and interfaces are the same. The fact that there are millions of cars with similar parts ensures availability of parts that are at least similar well I to the future, even if it's not from the OEM.

 

I'm with @UWSkier, keep buying boats so I can get one in 10-15 years.

[swc5150]

@Cnewbert I suppose deals will vary by dealership and prior relationships with such dealer. If a dealer won’t beat MAP, a promo boat would be a much better choice. I’ve found the new 200 and Prostar are much more in line price-wise, with the SN being the higher ticket outlier...at least how I’d spec them out.

[UWSkier]

@scorban2 if you did all types of boats, not just ski and wake, I think you could get a fair bit of business. A new Medallion touch screen for a 2013 Malibu is a few grand. They ALL delaminate if they haven't been replaced. These screens were used for several years, and not just on Malibus. Medallion does a ton of OEM business.

[Dacon62]

Never been a Nautique guy. Never owned one. The ones I drove were solid boats. Have always been a Malibu guy but now on team MC after Malibu strayed on the 17+ models.

Did Nautique fail? Don’t think the new version is easy to look at and is a hard price to swallow. But they are pushing the limits of design, body lines and wake tech. Who else can get away with building hulls with varying dangly bits and get away with it. Good on them.

How boring to keep turning out the same old stuff!!

Not selling my 17 PS anytime soon though. No dangly bits to achieve the same objective and much easier on the eye.

 

[The_MS]

If the newer Nautiques are pricing out the same a the newer MCs, then why are the used Nautiques so darn expensive?

[DavidN]

That's definitely not the best angle to take a picture for an ad. :D

How’s that saying? ...A face that only a mother could love... ?

 

 

[slow]

Yikes

[UWSkier]

That or the Malibu from that same angle.

 

( GIF removed by admin - Funny but too much )

[ozski]

The real question is this, how does Nautique respond if at all? At this point in time price is probably the only card they have to play. Its fine to say the 200 fits the lower price point but its now 10 years old.

[jjackkrash]

@ozski, Nautique already responded; a week after the new Prostar dropped, Nautique raised the Ski's MSRP 5k.

 

I am also not convinced the Prostar is the Ski's real competitor. You seem to assume it is because they both do the same thing. But I would wager the bigger threat is the Paragon. I am told my dealer has a 1-year wait list if you want a new Paragon and for every Ski that Nautique builds--or maybe 1-and-a-half or two--it builds one less very profitable wake barge because they only have so many build slots. I'll also wager before Nautique even considered trying to cut costs on the Ski or tried to make their flagship a price-point boat, they'd just stop making them.

 

Right now my understanding is the Nautique factory sells every Ski they make and I'll bet they do it at a nice profit (I'll stand corrected if there is contrary evidence out there). Why would Nautique lower the price? Again, I think they would simply drop it from the line rather than go in the other direction or reduce the margins, when they can just make other boats that sell at the same or bigger margins. The Ski is competing for build slots more than it is buyers.

 

I am also not convinced Mastercraft is gunning for the Ski Nautique's base buyers either. The recent promo videos show they have three basic selling points: (1) they are hyping the fact that they fixed the slop in the steering and also now (finally) make an adjustable rudder; (2) they are hyping the fact that they fixed the tracking by adding two rails and an extra fin; and (3) they apparently cut costs by making things like the back seats cheaper to reduce the base MSRP. I can only speak for myself, but none of these selling points really excited me. This strategy (IMO) shows Mastercaft is gunning for: (1) 2014-2020 Mastercraft owners (I'd be a little hacked if I were trying to sell a 2014-2020 Prostar right now); (2) the TXI; and (3) the ski-school/club boat market. I can see why a commercial outfit would want a no-frills or less frills tugboat to haul pay-per-ski skiers up and down the lake all day, and I can also see why many buyers don't want or need all the features and frills Nautique brings to the table (even if I'm not one of them).

 

The bottom line is, Nautique isn't going to respond to the new Prostar like it is some kind of existential threat, because it isn't. Nautique will most likely sell all the Skis they make for 2021 just like they did last year and the year before; if they don't, they will more likely give some build slots to a few more Paragons or G23s or GS22s, or one of the other wake barges, before they go in some other cost-cutting build direction. And I'd bet paychecks you will never see a promo video about how Nautique spent several years figuring out what you don't need, or how to cut costs, or how to make the boat cheaper. That just isn't going to happen.

 

As a final note, I hope Mastercraft sells a bunch of Prostars. It looks like a very nice boat and a lot of people clambered for a price-point boat with better tracking. I fear, however, that many people focused that much on price are still not going to shell out $70-100k (depending on options) for a new one. We'll see I guess.

 

 

[ozski]

@jjackkrash thanks for your perspective but I'm not sure they sold / sell every single one? Not without doing some serious price based deals I bet. On top of that the very first one that came into Australia is still for sale at a reduced price (now 125k) going on 18 months... Maybe they will just build more wake barges as you say and that would be a hell of a shame. And yes I would hate to be sitting on a used Prostar / TXi right now because that new Prostar looks like a big step forward.

[jjackkrash]

@ozski, I don't know much about the Australian market. But I am glad there are still three major manufactures still in the DD ski market at all. Skiing seemed like it was on its death bed not too long ago. Having more choices would obviously be nice, but the fact is we need more skiers and a bigger market, or there's a chance there won't be any choices at all if the manufacturers decide it is just not worth it to be in this segment and exit. So I do hope Mastercraft sells the crap out of that boat.

[bkreis]

@ozski they sold every ski boat they made.

[emwheaton]

Nautique's only competition for the SN is their G and GS Series boats. We toured the factory a couple years ago, the week after the SN was released. If anything, it felt like they were doing the skiing world a favor by still making a dedicated boat for that segment. They were, and I would assume still are, at max capacity, and it seemed like any spot a SN or 200 was taking up in the build schedule could very easily be replaced with a GS or G series boat (likely at a higher margin). I forget the exact percentage, but 200s/ SNs at the time were easily less than 20% of their build schedule. Add the paragon into the lineup now... Nautique could easily transition into a wake/ crossover boat only company, and I'm sure they would be no worse off.

 

As far as the new hull design/ body lines - while its definitely not my favorite either, the fact that they redesigned all of their G series boats to match the SN would suggest to me that the vast majority of the market feels differently.

 

 

[east tx skier]

Both from a monetary and aesthetic perspective, I never have felt better about hanging on to this old tug than I have at this moment.