Malibu no longer making ski boats?

[rockdog]

Soon enough Correct Craft are going to own Facebook, Google, Pfizer and Tesla. 🙄

[Horton]

a dark source tells me that the new boat from Indmar is https://www.kymaboats.com/

[APB]

Lots of speculation here…. If it was another brand this post would have been buried in minutes. 

[Horton]

@APB

if the story was about Nautique or MasterCraft, I could have a definitive answer one or two phone calls. 

 

[03RLXi]

2 hours ago, APB said:

Lots of speculation here…. If it was another brand this post would have been buried in minutes. 

It's a good thing there's so much interest. Shows that everyone here wants competition and not only 2 brands. That's healthy. 

Less good is that Malibu hasn't made a media statement now that the rumour is out there. That would be respectful to the sport, plus current and past customers. 

[skialex]

@Horton Kyma means wave in Greek, unless It’s an acronym… they named their boat “Wave”

just sayin…

[skibrain]

Malibu confirms production of TXi will continue.

[jcwaterskiparadise]

13 minutes ago, skibrain said:

Malibu confirms production of TXi will continue.

Good news

[stevezie]

It does feel like the beginning of the end without a promo program though unless Malibu is going to change their pricing strategy. Buyers need to be able order their new Malibu for less (or at least comparable) than they can get a Mastercraft or Nautique promo to keep this going. Based on the previous TXi and LXi they might be able to do that and capture healthy margins but will they continue to sacrifice those build slots to lower total profit ski boats. Is it possible the downturn lowers their total demand below their total production capacity, which would make them happy to build any boat?

[Horton]

That article doesn't make any sense. If the promo program is canceled then the boats will not qualify for nationals and will almost be non-existent at local tournaments.

Non-tournament skiers may not think this is important but considering they only make 45 or 50 boats a year now. Canceling those promo boats means canceling orders for model year 2025. 

I interpret this as a slow death versus product cancellation.

 

[VONMAN]

OK, about Kymaboats when does a Jet pump drive = Fuel economy?

[S1Pitts]

@VONMAN I was thinking that exact same thing as well as the added noise. Have you ever heard a quiet jet boat?

I think they went jet to get these barges into shallower waters. I know of several lakes where there are no barges because they have shallow ramps and cannot launch

Edit: Thinking about it...I was dropping off a prop at a repair shop last fall for some tweaking. They had almost 400 props in there for repair and 99% of them were from barges.

[DW]

Rob Corum’s comments are much more telling than the news that Malibu is keeping the ability to build the TXI.  I hope the AWSA is reading and absorbing the release.  What it says about the sport would hopefully generate action from the organizing body.

[buechsr]

1 minute ago, DW said:

Rob Corum’s comments are much more telling than the news that Malibu is keeping the ability to build the TXI.  I hope the AWSA is reading and absorbing the release.  What it says about the sport would hopefully generate action from the organizing body.

To do what?

[Horton]

After an exchange with someone at USAWS this morning I am more convinced that it is most likely that all the details are still fluid.   

[DW]

@buechsr - that would depend on their mission.  A few options could be:  continue along the current course, expand a marketing program to increase visibility to attract additional membership,  look at the key focus of the organization and see if it is still appealing (ie: tournament format, etc).  My point was simply that the comment regarding the state of the sport comes from a manufacturer and not just passionate participants.

[Horton]

I guess a different question is - If Malibu keeps making the TXi but does not have boats at tournaments will that move potential buyers to MasterCraft and Nautique? Or will it not make a difference? The TXi accounted for only 15% of the total tournament boat market last year. 

[unksskis]

Re-gaining control of the storyline/messaging, while laying the groundwork for justifying future maneuvers. Letting it die on the vine so then you have reason to trim it. 

[03RLXi]

@VONMAN @S1Pitts there's a lot of jetboats here in New Zealand because of the braided rivers and I've owned 2. Most are noisy because the DIY builder or the manufacturer only puts in marines manifolds and then straight pipe(s). However some go to the effort of adding internal mufflers and they can be really quiet. 

As far as towing goes they pull fine (can get near maximum thrust when stationary), but they don't have the same 'grip' hence the tow feels a bit soft. Also the wakes are soft and foamy due to the jet trust. Fine for recreational skiing and wakeboarding. Maybe setup well would be ok for surfing too, but I think they'll struggle to get the solid wave the surfers want.   

But if people are thinking they'll allow them to access and surf in shallow water think again.  They will but only once or twice before environmentalists will get them shutdown. Around here many people power load onto trailers. It causes a hole to form at the base of the ramp and a mound of gravel further back. Props on inboards, IOs, outboards, etc don't move much gravel but the nozzle of the jetboats blows big holes at bottom of ramps. It's like a really high power fire nose. Imagine surf boats not planing and at 30 deg angle. They'd destroy lake beds that are less then 8m deep (25') 

[jjackkrash]

Jet boats are perfect if you don't really want the boat to track in straight lines, deliver efficient power to propel the boat through the water, or need any semblance of low-speed control when docking or picking up fallen water sports participants.    

Seriously, the biggest benefit is no prop to hurt someone or get bent and shallow water capability, but  there are some big tradeoffs.  

 

[buechsr]

2 hours ago, Horton said:

I guess a different question is - If Malibu keeps making the TXi but does not have boats at tournaments will that move potential buyers to MasterCraft and Nautique? Or will it not make a difference? The TXi accounted for only 15% of the total tournament boat market last year. 

From a buyer's perspective, hard to justify a, whatever, $90,000 promo txi that now you don't even have a 1/3 chance of drawing at big tourneys let alone see at many local tourneys going forward.  My bet is the market will be soft for the last year of Malibu promo guys next fall.  That stinks all the way around.  

[buechsr]

2 hours ago, DW said:

@buechsr - that would depend on their mission.  A few options could be:  continue along the current course, expand a marketing program to increase visibility to attract additional membership,  look at the key focus of the organization and see if it is still appealing (ie: tournament format, etc).  My point was simply that the comment regarding the state of the sport comes from a manufacturer and not just passionate participants.

 

Look we all want interest from skiers and supporting industries but my response was to your call that as a result of the the Malibu PR release "would hopefully generate action from the organizing body"

I was looking for you to say what you'd like to see.  I'm sure Lyman would as well.  We all want the sport to thrive.  But its hard to create a meaningful marketing program for AWSA in the current climate.  I'm quite confident that Lyman  and his predecessors do all they can with the budget they're able to use and are acutely aware of competitive skiing's challenges.  But as I've already posted in this thread in response to someone saying kids aren't skiing any more, that's actually not the case, when looking at nationals numbers, anyway.   

A manufacturer's decision to stop promo program is just that, theirs.  Doesn't make it right, or wrong, or that the sky is falling, it was a decision they made based on their resources.  As a former owner of many many malibus, this upsets me, and I hope they realize that there's a lot of direct drive Malibu owners out there who supported their Vdrives as a result of their introduction to Malibu through a direct drive.  I've felt this way for a long time when manufacturer "support" of ski boats has come up.  I don't think it's fully appreciated how many Vdrive sales are a result of someone's experience with the brand through their ski products.  Hard to prove or know that but I firmly believe that the promo program sells boats years after the ski year AND supports other models/entries.

 

 

[ETskier]

Back to the Kymaboat. Just wondering what the cost will be to upgrade to the Raptor Ford 6.2L RoushTurbo 575 engine. Imagine that thing in a traditional ski boat. 510 HP,  580 torque. 

[03RLXi]

3 hours ago, jjackkrash said:

Jet boats are perfect if you don't really want the boat to track in straight lines, deliver efficient power to propel the boat through the water, or need any semblance of low-speed control when docking or picking up fallen water sports participants.    

Seriously, the biggest benefit is no prop to hurt someone or get bent and shallow water capability, but  there are some big tradeoffs.  

 

?? I don't disagree with tracking but that's more the typical hull than the drive system itself.  Jet drives are more efficient than props at certain speeds. It's why many ferries world wide are jet. Low speed control is vastly superior to direct drives. Can turn them on the spot, move sideways etc. It's why many supply and service boats are jets. Jets used world wide are very different than the US drag boat style big block noise makers with berkleys and tiny nozzle.

[Stevie Boy]

With Nautique & Mastercraft so dominant in the market, you can understand why Malibuu are not pushing to compete with them, yes they have a good ski boat, but the other two have improved there ski boat to a very high level, the majority of ski schools or clubs run the Nautique or Mastercraft, skiers do tend to want to ski behind what they are more used to.

In my opinion if Malibu had spare capacity and wanted to put a dent in Nautique and Mastercraft, keep the hull, but produce a more basic boat at a reduced cost., this would not only be attractive to ski schools and clubs, even universities, could possibly drive sales in the public sector.

They could even setup a stand alone company/unit to produce a boat, that would stand or fall on its own merits.

I know it won't happen, but a change in strategy sometimes pays off.

[braindamage]

9 hours ago, Horton said:

That article doesn't make any sense. If the promo program is canceled then the boats will not qualify for nationals and will almost be non-existent at local tournaments.

Non-tournament skiers may not think this is important but considering they only make 45 or 50 boats a year now. Canceling those promo boats means canceling orders for model year 2025. 

I interpret this as a slow death versus product cancellation.

 

There are a lot of ways to obsolete a product line. Starving it of resources and promotion is a pretty common move. It won’t take long before it just dies.

[braindamage]

“Cost Efficiency” is what the CEO says Malibu is focused on.

if you've gone through an 80/20 exercise in business, then you know that driving cost efficiency is about focusing on growing the 20% of products that make up 80% of your revenue to the 20% of customers who make up 80% of revenues. That is where you get cost efficiency. Typically a company makes their best profit here, and that subsidizes the smaller contribution products to the smaller customers.

slalom boats are a minutiae of Malibu’s business, and competition skiers are a minutiae of their customer base. This isn’t about asset utilization, it’s about eliminating the variable costs.

Unfortunately, this is how math of profitability works.

I think Malibu intended to discontinue the TXi but was caught off guard by the noise it generated so this decision to continue without spending any money is the fallback.

[Luzz]

15 hours ago, Horton said:

I guess a different question is - If Malibu keeps making the TXi but does not have boats at tournaments will that move potential buyers to MasterCraft and Nautique? Or will it not make a difference? The TXi accounted for only 15% of the total tournament boat market last year. 

And yet it pulled the two most recent World Records (W Slalom, M Overall). Are you going to buy a boat that has proven to pull great skiing even if you will find it less frequently at events? Is the price difference enough to justify the purchase? Good questions…

Personally, I feel that the difference in how boats ski has become so marginal that it doesn't matter as much what you train behind. Or at least not as much as it did 15 years ago.

Sticking with slalom, I train regularly behind the TXi and have little thoughts about skiing behind MC or Nautique, and the same goes for other skiers and brands. I'm sure some slalomers, some jumpers, and most trickers will disagree with me… but one has to admit the differences are smaller. 

[DvarianDan Johnson]

“The business realities of a small and declining ski business have necessitated change going forward,”

"where the smaller size boats typically generate a significantly smaller margin per build slot. The decision underscores the precarious position of three-event skiing, ........."

 "the water ski community faces hard questions about the future of the sport with declining industry support."

 Kudo's to Rob for the candid comments. Life support is the reality.  We should expect the trends to continue  

[buechsr]

Sourcing numbers from a few areas of the internet, so take with a grain of salt: 

There were 7,216 "inboards" sold in 2013.  (per boatingindustry.com)

In 2019 Malibu alone sold 6,292.  I don't know the mix of cobalt.  Industry-wide, 13,000 inboards sold in 2020.  I'll assume 15,000 ish at the 2022 peak.

Roughly speaking, in 2013, the Vdrive conversion was already well in hand.  Some manufacturers had either cut all DD (Tige), or cut to 1 or 2 models, many of which were carry over low sales units like a CB response, which was basically unchanged since 1999.

It wouldn't surprise me that in 2013 that DD sales were 10% of the market: about 600 boats.  

I don't know for sure, but I'd estimate that the big 3 produced 500 or so DDs in 2022 of the 15,000.  I bet Horton knows the MC figures which would be the bellweather.

My point?  In 10 years it may be that there's only a 100 unit difference in DD sales.  Malibu made a business decision as to its priorities, but I just don't see it as indicative of a cliff that DD sales by gross unit numbers are THAT much different than regular market trends.  

 

[Horton]

@buechsr 2023 Total market tournament boats was 315-ish. ProStars accounted for more than 1/2.

 

[RAWSki]

Hate to say it but SIA may need to change their security question.

[buechsr]

58 minutes ago, Horton said:

@buechsr 2023 Total market tournament boats was 315-ish. ProStars accounted for almost 2/3 of that.

 

Not at all suggesting that's wrong, but lets assume MC accounted for 200, leaving 115 between CC and BU.  If BU did 50 txis, CC only did 65 200s and SNs?  Seems low but maybe you're right.  

Would you agree that product mix in 2013 was roughly 10% direct drives?

[Horton]

@buechsr damn it. I wrote that last post sitting in my car. You're correct the math is wrong. I fixed it above.

I have no idea about total DD. I only have info on ski boats.

[Golfguy]

This is a timely post. It seems to me that it more exemplifies a problem with demand and not supply (boats) What can be done to make slalom skiing more popular with respect to tournaments and posting scores? How can we capitalize on modern technology to make running tournaments and drawing new skiers? Today a tournament skier must sacrifice an entire day and most often weekend to participate, most often leaving the family at home. As Einstein liked to say, "Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result." I don't have answers, but think we need to disassemble and rebuild the model. 

 

Thanks for listening.

[George Hazelwood]

Australia and Europe do well with the Response, lack of a promo campaign will not affect these markets. Malibu became strong reading the market and constantly innovating. I feel they will be around for a long while. 

[Horton]

@George Hazelwood

I think everyone is hoping that is true

[WDKinley]

Man I just hope the big three all keep selling so I can enjoy an "affordable" 2024 model in the year 2040. Y'all big wigs get off your pockets!

[unksskis]

2 hours ago, Golfguy said:

This is a timely post. It seems to me that it more exemplifies a problem with demand and not supply (boats) What can be done to make slalom skiing more popular with respect to tournaments and posting scores? How can we capitalize on modern technology to make running tournaments and drawing new skiers? Today a tournament skier must sacrifice an entire day and most often weekend to participate, most often leaving the family at home. As Einstein liked to say, "Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result." I don't have answers, but think we need to disassemble and rebuild the model. 

 

Thanks for listening.

🔩🔨🫳🎤

[Stevie Boy]

As stated previously in the thread, with the cost of boats, it's no surprise that buying a good older boat and putting money aside for a engine rebuild or replacement, is probably, more beneficial to the average water skier who is looking to own a boat of there own.

But with the cost of boats in general for the individual who just wants to ski, it is probably more cost effective to pay per tow, no maintenance, no depreciation and no problems locating a good driver.

[DBarth]

I've had the Yamaha Sport boat (jetboat) for ~2 years after having a Moomba Boomerang for ~20 years. It has been a great hybrid boat for wakesurf, wakeboard, and skiing for the family.  It is also 20% the cost of a new high end wakeboard boat.

Only issue is, for slalom, you can really feel the tugging of the skier as a driver (no fins).  We were concerned on the low speed control but the paddles on the wheel for parking allow you to parallel park the thing and do a standing 360.

 

[Horton]

It would be interesting to have enough good data to create a chart - what has happened since 2020 is something like this - not exactly in sequential order. 

• Covid hit and demand increased.
• Supply chain issues choked off production and increased costs
• Dealers were starving because of a lack of production - showrooms were empty
• The supply chain mostly recovered but costs remained high
• Dealers received a deluge of boats and skis at inflated prices
• General inflation and interest rates kicked in and demand plummeted
• Dealers are now sitting on a lot of product ( debt ) and consumers are home eating ramen noodles and saving pennies

Dealers and manufacturers who foresaw the cycle and were able to weather the storm will be fine but others are victims of an unusual market cycle. 

This is not unique to the ski industry. It is the same for RVs and other industries. 

If any of you are smarty-pants economists and want to flush this out further I would be interested to hear what you think.  If we were not living through it I would think it was super interesting. 

[disland]

the same thing happened in tech, check out CMBM JNPR EXTR

[Rednucleus]

@Horton But I read it on the internet!!

[Drago]

7 hours ago, disland said:

the same thing happened in tech, check out CMBM JNPR EXTR

Different financial scale, but also in bicycles. The supply/demand/order/preorder/forecasting tornado is fascinating. There is a great, longish, 3-part podcast on this https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/escape-collective/id1655210692?i=1000645111182 

[Horton]

@Drago

I'm 2/3 of the way through that first episode. For anybody who's interested in the sporting goods industry, this podcast is super fascinating. Thank you, Drago

[DaveD]

Might have already been mentioned, but the RV market is a shambles right now too.  Someone told me the other day that prices are being advertised "1/3 off".

[jjackkrash]

40 minutes ago, DaveD said:

Someone told me the other day that prices are being advertised "1/3 off".

"1/4 to 1/3 off" was the pre-covid standard forever.  The RV MSRP prices are more fake than even boats.  Then Covid hit and they started charging MSRP or even over.  Good for them but it was a windfall.  I see "1/3 off" as a return to normalcy.  (Although I don't know the actual state of the industry as a whole).  

[mikerev800]

On 2/11/2024 at 10:38 AM, Horton said:

@skialex

 

 

Horton, you and your pandas.... You're such a tool!
Ski boat manufacturers screwed the pooch by making more and more expensive ski boats. Many other factors are killing the sport too! Today's kids are too scared to waterski, wake surfing has RUINIED recreational sports on smaller public lakes. On a 400 acre lake, it only takes about two surf boats to ruin the water for EVERYONE! Glad to hear that some states are cracking down WAKE boats! Anyone who wake surfs or owns a wake surf boat and thinks they are cool, are clueless!  It's a lame sport!
 

14 hours ago, DaveD said:

Might have already been mentioned, but the RV market is a shambles right now too.  Someone told me the other day that prices are being advertised "1/3 off".

I looked at buying a RV just last year and prices were whack and dealers weren't budging! But yes, I look at prices now and better now.

There is NO reason ski boat manufacturers can't make affordable ski boats. NONE!

[Jody_Seal]

@Horton

lol!! guys first post and say'z you are a tool! 

Ban him!