Malibu no longer making ski boats?

[Taynton]

If you want a case study on how to destroy a sport with corporate greed and mismanagement, look at stand up jetskiing.  One of the biggest motorsports in the 80's and 90's, then the governing body (controlled by the manufacturers) moved the racing regulations to support the sit-down racing and the ads and promotions to follow; (because of the bigger margins) completely killed stand up jet skiing. So effectively in fact that most people thought they stopped making them. (they didn't). I feel like skiing is doing the same..  

without an organization that promotes new engagement and shows some flexibility (and innovation) in the types of events held, I don't hold much hope for skiing as a whole.

[Golfguy]

2 hours ago, skierjp said:

Everyone gets caught up in the price of a NEW boat. I can remember when we thought the world was coming to an end when the price hit 50K. Remember when Goode came out with the first slalom ski that sold for $1000.00? We are now at $2,500. Ski gloves can cost $100! Somehow, someway boating enthusiasts seem to have no problem dropping 350k to 500k for wake boats. When I was at the Ford dealership having my truck serviced the going price for a loaded F250 diesel is 94k and there was a 5K bump on top of that. Back in the day there were skiers that couldn’t afford a brand new boat no different  than now. The buyers that have to have the first year model change or can afford to buy a new boat every year or two are the ones that create the domino effect on the used boat market to make it feasible for others. Trying to put everything in perspective, rent is ridiculous and who would have ever thought that   when buying a house you would bid up from the asking price not down. 
    I think a big reason for the lack of sales for three event boats stems from private lakes where one ski boat may be shared by 20 or  30 homeowners. Also ski clubs and ski schools where you pay a membership, way cheaper than owning a boat! Also what one of the other posters stated, try permitting a course or jump on a public lake. If you do happen to get a permit upkeep on the course is ridiculous. 
   Also, on public lakes you deal with jet skis and wave runners. Good luck trying to get a set in! Kind of crazy but I would like to see a graph of when the jet skis became popular and the downturn of skiing. 
   

I agree with some of what you are saying. The departure is that it is justifiable for accelerated pricing is not a factor in eliminating many from the sport. It is. Just because some can afford to pay this cost, there are many that this factor is a non starter. The new boats are unnecessarily  lager, and heavier. Because of this they need larger more expensive engines. We need to get back to basics before it is too late, or maybe that ship has sailed. 

[BKistler]

Many thoughtful comments on this thread. One that has not been mentioned (unless I totally overlooked it) is that kids do not water ski at all these days. It’s knee boards, wakeboards and tubes. It’s rare to see kids being taught to get up on skis.

[DW]

One can surmise the decision was purely based on the financials, stock price & share holder pressure.  Malibu does not appear to have the 3 event champion keeping that segment in play.  The new ski boat market happens to compute to .00000001% of the US population, in other words hardly a vibrant market.  Malibu's market share for the watersports boat market holds steady at 50% (bolstered by all the wake boats) and they keep expanding the wake segment portfolio.  A quick perusal of the Malibu Crew site highlights an overwhelming focus on wake / surf boats and a negligible ski boat / slalom / 3 event topic volume.  My conclusion, a no brainer they are suspending production.  With that in mind, it does not seem likely Malibu will restart production of the TXI if the cyclical market theory reverses itself, it seems the market is simply too small.  

So, 2 down 2 left in the last few years in our coveted niche.  The US market for all things seems to head down the bigger is better path, no matter what the product (houses, cars, trucks, SUV's, boats, food consumption, beverage sizes, drugs, implants ....).  

[Mastercrafter]

Not good news,  but not unlike Ford no longer producing a sedan. You can get an SUV, truck, crossover, or Mustang. They went for higher priced, higher profit vehicles. 
 

 

[BKistler]

28 minutes ago, DW said:

The US market for all things seems to head down the bigger is better path, no matter what the product (houses, cars, trucks, SUV's, boats, food consumption, beverage sizes, drugs, implants ....).  

You hit the nail on the head. 

[Scotty]

So this thread really hit home with me as it does with all of you.  I’m a newb here but not new to strictly recreational slalom.  I’ve owned 4 ski boats so far and my latest is a 2001 Gekko GTR 22.  Why?, because it’s an awesome boat for what 99% of the market will ever need.

What has to be realized is that 99.999% of skiers will never ski at a competitive level, they  just want to have fun

It’s my belief that the reason skiing is dying is simple, the coast of a new boat is just too damn expensive for the average enthusiast to purchase, period.

 

 

 

[DW]

The high cost argument as the low volume reason carries a very significant flaw - Wake / surf boats.  Acquisition, operating, storage, towing cost are multiples higher than the costs of a new ski boat.  Add that the actual participation time (running under load per participant) skews the cost even more   Its all about participant interest or lack thereof (sadly).  On my lake, there used to be several ski boats, not so much today.  The wake / slalom boat market ratios would be interesting to compare across continents / country's. 

[stevezie]

58 minutes ago, DW said:

The high cost argument as the low volume reason carries a very significant flaw - Wake / surf boats.  Acquisition, operating, storage, towing cost are multiples higher than the costs of a new ski boat.  Add that the actual participation time (running under load per participant) skews the cost even more   Its all about participant interest or lack thereof (sadly).  On my lake, there used to be several ski boats, not so much today.  The wake / slalom boat market ratios would be interesting to compare across continents / country's. 

I disagree and would suggest wake surfing tapped into an entirely different market and has almost nothing to do with the skiing market at all. A big chunk of that market it more interested in looking cool rather than a genuine love for the sport. Once it’s no longer fashionable, it will crash. 
 

Regardless, the surfing market is going down the same path. Look at the prices on those boats. The OEMs crank up prices continuously going after margins instead of volume. Water skiing, motor cycles, trucks, whatever, this works until you have narrowed the marked until there is no viable market left. 

[Ski_Dad]

Malibu should re-release the Sunsetter LXI with ZO.   I know, I'm biased.

[Horton]

Just a reminder - to the best of my knowledge, the demise of the TXi is 100% speculation at this point. This thread reads as if someone has confirmation that the program is canceled. I am yet to see confirmation. If someone knows something more let me know.

All we know is that Dennis Kelly was let go unexpectedly. 

[UWSkier]

somebody try to order a TXi and let us know if you get a slot.  :)

 

[UWSkier]

Stinks if it's true though.  While it's not as popular as the other two, it's clearly still a REALLY good boat, with two WRs set behind it at the same tourney this year.

[Dano]

Pretty telling how fragile the market is by the reaction to pure speculation.  A lot of valid points being raised  about the cost, availability, and viability of the tournament boat offerings. Which in turn has sparked the conversation of what’s wrong with the sport and why participation is down.  Right here in this thread is some good insights to what is missing from the sport.

The sport needs to get back to the grass roots of it all.  Just the basics of a bunch of people having fun on the lake. Buoys are not for everybody, perfect water isn’t accessible to everybody.  But skiing can exist outside of those 2 things, and guess what it’s still fun.  The more people that experience it and understand it even at most basic level, can also then  appreciate the skill it takes to complete the course.  Maybe they might enjoy watching a tournament again. Just like a hockey fan who can’t skate enjoys watching a game. 

I’m not sure a cheaper boat is a viable option in the market space.  However, There clearly is a crowd that wants cheaper boats so maybe there is a chance it could work.  (Please don’t point to the CP and say it’s been done. It was still a lot of money, and if you’re spending that much, why not spend  another 10k for the tried and true.  I love the CP but it wasn’t a bargain boat). I don’t think it’s on the current producers to offer a cheaper boat.  There is a healthy used market for the budget minded.  I can’t afford a new truck but I’ve never heard somebody say they need to produce a bare bones bargain truck.  Guys like me just buy used.  

[aupatking]

Like Horton said, it’s speculation right now, but obviously, most of us see it as most likely. I’ve been trying to avoid going down the “what’s wrong with the sport” rabbit hole on this one But you really can’t. It’s the reason this is happening. I didn’t elaborate a point I meant to in an earlier post. That when I ski the rivers here, people love it. Slalom skiing is still really awesome to watch and it makes people want to do it. It’s just rare. There are zero public slalom courses in my area anymore. I live on public water but ski a private lake. We went into a closet with this sport and expected the world to still be looking. 

[EricKelley]

I choose to think the sky is not falling.  I have a great time skiing and will until I can’t.  There are a lot of people who love the sport and whatever happens with the boat companies, the sport will go on.

Everything cycles and there will be better times for the manufacturers.  Increased interest rates killed a market that has been dependent on long term financing.   Just say a prayer for all those employees whose life’s work is going to have to change.

[skialex]

This is sad news, but could also be an opportunity for someone else.

there is always money to be made in niche markets. Maybe a smaller size lower cost company can take over and build a ski boat, or Malibu can licensing the hull to somebody else.

Anyway, if Malibu stops producing ski boats… let’s hope not…. And there is money to be made… hopefully somebody else will step in.

[Horton]

@skialex

 

 

[skialex]

6 minutes ago, Horton said:

@skialex

 

 

Ahaha…. My first…

[Scotty]

Why, in the opinion of members here, does a mfg need to get AWSA approval to sell a great ski boat? 

Put the minimum equipment necessary to gain approval and make all the fluff separate options.

Probably, the majority of ski-hacks like me could care less if it’s AWSA approved.

Heck, being old school I’d prefer a carburetor 🤪💪🏻.

What I’d like is to buy a new boat sold without an engine so I can build my own they way I want…

[Wiltok]

I have been hesitant to jump into this one but here goes. I have no concrete info on the demographics of the posters here, but I am guessing we are doing pretty well financially. People that can afford a boat (any boat), need a decent amount of disposable income just to keep it running (gas, maint, storage, water toys, etc). I am going to assume as relatively well off people many also invest in the stock market. And its in our best interests for the stock market to keep going up (woo-hoo SPX > 5000!) so we can continue to afford these lifestyles. MC and Malibu are publicly traded companies, and while I am guessing many are not investing directly, the companies are making decisions in the best interests of their shareholders. Therein lies the problem - many of us are part of the machine since we are shareholders of many companies ourselves. Higher margin products, focusing on profitable markets, etc is what we expect companies we invest in to do to be successful. So it's difficult for me, as a person who wants to see the market to keep climbing (overall), to be critical of business decisions that quite frankly make sense for profitability. Don't get me wrong, I hate the huge wake barges on my lake, sending rollers that stuff my Prostar bow, but it is what it is. Just my .02.  

[Zman]

1 minute ago, Scotty said:

What I’d like is to buy a new boat sold without an engine so I can build my own they way I want…

Interesting concept.  Or, just send hulls to @Jody_Seal and let him power them up to buyers' choosing.  Be careful though, you might end up with tail pipe risers.

[teammalibu]

After working with Dennis Kelley for many years, I second what Ham said! I don’t know anyone who worked harder to keep the TXI alive! Best of luck to you Dennis. And hopes that the TXI program continues!

[jjackkrash]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Put the minimum equipment necessary to gain approval and make all the fluff separate options.

These boats don't sell; manufacturers don't want to make them; and the ski boats that currently sell and are the most profitable are still at risk of being discontinued because they are less profitable than the wake boats. 

Maybe some of you guys with the bare-bones strippy ski boat fantasy business model can start a company and give it a go and prove me wrong.  I'll root you all on from the sidelines (I just won't invest any of my money in the business plan).  

 

[teammalibu]

@Zman

your TXI was a classic the day it was built!

[BlueSki]

I was speaking with a portfolio manager that has one of the publicly traded boat makers in their portfolio. I asked about the impact of interest rates and consumer financing on the company’s sales expectations, and he told me that approximately 70% of sales were paid for with cash.  

[slow]

How many new boats do we really need a year. Hulls haven’t changed much in 25 years and the boats last a long time. On our lake the most popular ski boat is a bubble butt, which is great unless you’re doing high end tournament skiing and need ZO.  Very narrow segment of the market that needs a new boat at $100k. We now have 25+ years of wood free boats that don’t rot out with fuel injected engines.

[DvarianDan Johnson]

No one here should be surprised by this.  Aside from the already covered investment perspective logic on Malibu, the comp ski world has been in continued decline for a very long time.  Readers of this form should know this better than most. How many times have you read over the past years of another club folding, or another college team folding or struggling, another lake losing it's course, another private ski lake now dried up, a training facility closing, etc, etc.  In just recent posts here on BOS alone you have the UCLA club with their hand out asking for help, and even TWBC for the second year in a row asking for donations in order to broadcast nationals. The comp ski world has been in a slow burn for a long time, and it will continue. This is an old topic and includes all the items covered countless times such as access, costs, etc. The Malibu move here if confirmed as fact again should not be a surprise to anyone.  Grounding in reality is essential.  Another comment above regarding boomers is a part of this reality. Look at the brackets with the largest # of skiers.  Onward.......................       

[Horton]

@DvarianDan Johnson

Your points might be on target but some of your examples are off base.

 

UCLA has been an unfunded club for over 30 years. They have survived on the checkbooks of parents and donations since day one. This is not a measure of the state of the sport.

 

A TWBC broadcast is expensive and is always paid for by the event sponsor.  

To get the webcast the choices were

A) raise the Nationals entry frees – super unpopular but maybe should be right answer

B) have USAWS pay the bill – not going to happen

C) the event organizer pay the bill – never going to happen

D) do a fund raiser – only popular option.

This is not a measure of the state of the sport.

[DvarianDan Johnson]

@Horton Mr. Horton - have to respectfully disagree. IMO your comments simply confirm that life support is widespread for so many programs, including these two.  Hence once can conclude that they are reflective of the wider picture. 

 

 

[Horton]

@DvarianDan Johnson 

Explain how a college club that has always been funded by a college kids and charity asking for money proves your point.

Also, explain how crowdfunding a non-essential but expensive webcast proves your point. The national webcast is mostly watched by the families of the skiers. Do you realize that when you see TWBC at a pro event the event organizer has to find the money to pay for it? A fund raiser is just an other way to get it done.

Again, I am not arguing our conclusions. I am saying you managed to pick two very bad examples to prove your point.   If you want to talk about bad news talk about AWSA Membership numbers or waterways access or tournament participation. 

To be clear, I'm only correcting these points because I have first hand knowledge about both and we really just don't need more misunderstandings out here on the inner tubes.

[George Hazelwood]

Malibu are still making Responses, Dennis is no longer with Malibu but that doesn't stop production of the Response. Its a great reliable boat and will continue to fill the Ski Boat space in the market while the demand is there.  

[liquid d]

That lawsuit loss of $200 million dollars may be the end of the company, with assets being sold. 

[stevezie]

29 minutes ago, liquid d said:

That lawsuit loss of $200 million dollars may be the end of the company, with assets being sold. 

You don't think publicly traded corporation has insurance?  It wont cover all of the damages but certainly a lot of it.  

For all the doom gloom such as "revenue is down 37%" and "profits are down 50%", lets keep it in perspective.  Despite being down, earnings were $37m.  That's still a 17% operating margin, which is relatively healthy for many business.  Large corporations frequently operate in single digits.  Investors currently aren't happy and they have challenges ahead of them, but I don't think we should jump to the conclusion the company is going away.

[buechsr]

50 minutes ago, liquid d said:

That lawsuit loss of $200 million dollars may be the end of the company, with assets being sold. 

MBUU stock popped 5% this am.  Malibu is going nowhere.  Heck we're thinking about "Malibu" boats....Malibu Boats the company owns numerous other manufacturers including Pursuit, Cobalt, Pathfinder, etc.  Discussion about the big 3 "killing" the ski boat market by "pushing" wake boats is not sound logic, any more so than saying Mastercraft is killing its sales with Bennington pontoons.  One has nothing to do with the other.  Malibu will try to make money however it can efficiently.  Heck they pioneered the "budget" wakeboat alternative in Axis with far less in margin for them than Malibus.  Simply put, the market has or will dictate the viability of continued txi builds.

[buechsr]

On 2/10/2024 at 8:52 PM, BKistler said:

Many thoughtful comments on this thread. One that has not been mentioned (unless I totally overlooked it) is that kids do not water ski at all these days. It’s knee boards, wakeboards and tubes. It’s rare to see kids being taught to get up on skis.

This is an overbroad statement that is not true for many areas.  

But lets even assume it is true, and since this site is at least in some way emphasizes tournament skiing, lets talk real numbers:  

I randomly selected ski year 2008, 15 years ago, and counted all girls competitors (G1-3) at nationals AT OKEEHEELEE...91 skiers.

I then took 2021, in ILLINOIS, and there were 88 girls competitors (G1-5).  I'm not going to go count every year for comparisons, but statements like "kids do not waterski AT ALL THESE DAYS" is simply not accurate and the sky is not falling when it comes to kids and tourney participation, certainly at nationals anyway.  

[stevezie]

7 minutes ago, buechsr said:

This is an overbroad statement that is not true for many areas.  

But lets even assume it is true, and since this site is at least in some way emphasizes tournament skiing, lets talk real numbers:  

I randomly selected ski year 2008, 15 years ago, and counted all girls competitors (G1-3) at nationals AT OKEEHEELEE...91 skiers.

I then took 2021, in ILLINOIS, and there were 88 girls competitors (G1-5).  I'm not going to go count every year for comparisons, but statements like "kids do not waterski AT ALL THESE DAYS" is simply not accurate and the sky is not falling when it comes to kids and tourney participation, certainly at nationals anyway.  

To further your point, show skiing is growing in the Midwest and it’s definitely not all boomers. The problem or problems are mostly specific to competitive skiing. 
 

Looking back at the people I skied three event with in college, I don’t think any still ski three event. Most of them show ski though.

[Wiltok]

1 hour ago, buechsr said:

MBUU stock popped 5% this am.  Malibu is going nowhere.  Heck we're thinking about "Malibu" boats....Malibu Boats the company owns numerous other manufacturers including Pursuit, Cobalt, Pathfinder, etc.  Discussion about the big 3 "killing" the ski boat market by "pushing" wake boats is not sound logic, any more so than saying Mastercraft is killing its sales with Bennington pontoons.  One has nothing to do with the other.  Malibu will try to make money however it can efficiently.  Heck they pioneered the "budget" wakeboat alternative in Axis with far less in margin for them than Malibus.  Simply put, the market has or will dictate the viability of continued txi builds.

MC was up almost 5% as well. Trading off the highs now but still a pretty big move. 

[fu_man]

On 2/10/2024 at 7:52 PM, BKistler said:

Many thoughtful comments on this thread. One that has not been mentioned (unless I totally overlooked it) is that kids do not water ski at all these days. It’s knee boards, wakeboards and tubes. It’s rare to see kids being taught to get up on skis.

@BKistler I am seeing something different in my neck of the woods.; at least in our little pocket of public lakes in northern Illinois.  I noticed this trend maybe 5-6 years ago.  While wakeboarding has been replace to a large degree by surfing, I definitely notice more people skiing than wakeboarding.  Now, to be clear, I am not talking about people riding the latest versions of slalom skis behind late model ski tugs.  I am talking about recreational skiers riding old skis behind runabouts.  Kids included.  Pretty common to see kids riding an old pair of combos fully bent over at the waist as they learn.  Regardless, this group of people is not going to buy a TXI.

[BraceMaker]

1 hour ago, stevezie said:

To further your point, show skiing is growing in the Midwest and it’s definitely not all boomers. The problem or problems are mostly specific to competitive skiing. 

And then again show skiing doesn't usually buy these boats either.

WIth the lawsuit more likely that bankrupting would be the potential for difficulty underwriting insurance going forwards again raw speculation since they might still be making boats or perhaps they're just not going to produce the 2024s till later in the season who knows but - the "dear owner" letters and updated capacity plates scream a multiprong strategy to appease insurers likely along with some form of testing and compliance policy.  As I said raw speculation but in large corporation speak losing lawsuits usually comes hand in hand with lots of meetings and a strategy to avoid it which could easily include them testing current models as well.

[Horton]

Does anybody think the impact of the lawsuit might be already baked into the current stock price? If Malibu was doomed we would already know. 

[Horton]

With permission from @Ali I changed the title of this thread from 

Malibu no longer making ski boats to Malibu no longer making ski boats?

[buechsr]

14 minutes ago, Horton said:

Does anybody think the impact of the lawsuit might be already baked into the current stock price? If Malibu was doomed we would already know. 

Absolutely.  Malibu is far from doomed, its a Billion Dollar company in market cap.

Notably, people continue to throw $200M around. The settlement agreement was for $100M, only 40 of which was payable immediately.  MORE IMPORTANTLY, Malibu has filed a bad faith action against its insurers for their failure to, allegedly, settle it within their policy limits before it even went to a trial.  In other words, Malibu's exposure could be quite minimized.  But I don't see what this has to do with the txi program.  

[BSBELL]

The reason wake boats are crushing it vs ski boats is:

1. Wake boarding and surfing take very little coaching/technique to be 'good' at compared to 3 event

2. Wake boats carry more people/gear, ride better in bigger water, and offer more fun amenities for partying

3. No need for a course or experienced driver

4. Keeping up with the Joneses at the party coves

 

Costs of boats is affecting everyone equally

[kmenard]

On 2/10/2024 at 9:32 PM, Scotty said:

So this thread really hit home with me as it does with all of you.  I’m a newb here but not new to strictly recreational slalom.  I’ve owned 4 ski boats so far and my latest is a 2001 Gekko GTR 22.  Why?, because it’s an awesome boat for what 99% of the market will ever need.

What has to be realized is that 99.999% of skiers will never ski at a competitive level, they  just want to have fun

It’s my belief that the reason skiing is dying is simple, the coast of a new boat is just too damn expensive for the average enthusiast to purchase, period.

 

 

 

As a fellow Gekko owner, I think we need to rethink the argument of the sport is too expensive....or at least the boats. The reason why less boats are being made is because they can sell MORE EXPENSIVE boats. Indmar just served me an ad today saying they are going to start building boats...the ad looked like a wake boat, and jet powered at that.

So, you have manufacturers making the decision to make more money...because they can, and who can blame them? The demand for Malibu...the value priced boat...which hasn't been touched in a few years design wise (and imho has massive variations in quality from hull to hull) is PROBABLY getting out of the niche market to sell more profitable boats...but what is the REAL difference between our sport and wake boarding and wake surfing?

Because of the latter, you can't do the former on public lakes. It isn't the boats...it is the venue. A public lake can have hundreds of people on it at a time tubing, wake surfing, pontooning, etc. A private lake can have 1,2,maybe 4 at a time. Give me a learn to ski day at a private lake and I can turn people into skiers all day long. Give me a learn to ski day on a public lake and MAYBE I can get them into show skiing or something similar, or recreational slalom skiing...but to run the course from 3am to 5am? Well...that is going to be pretty limiting.   

[03RLXi]

On 2/11/2024 at 9:09 PM, aupatking said:

That when I ski the rivers here, people love it. Slalom skiing is still really awesome to watch and it makes people want to do it.

There are zero public slalom courses in my area anymore. I live on public water but ski a private lake.

We went into a closet with this sport and expected the world to still be looking. 

Three very true statements right there that apply worldwide.

• People do appreciate seeing it done well.
• Access to courses is limited and added to that even the semi flat water is then shared with jetskis, other boats, people fishing etc
• Hide it away to enable the top of the crop athletes to get mirror water every time just means few will see it or follow it  

[Ski_Dad]

along these lines,  did anyone else get the email about a new boat brand being released with Indmar engines?   Probably a surf boat but I don't know.

[Ali]

5 hours ago, Horton said:

With permission from @Ali I changed the title of this thread from 

Malibu no longer making ski boats to Malibu no longer making ski boats?

Which is what I mean in the first place, thanks for correcting @Horton

[BraceMaker]

3 hours ago, Ski_Dad said:

along these lines,  did anyone else get the email about a new boat brand being released with Indmar engines?   Probably a surf boat but I don't know.

It seemed like they were going to offer that jet drive option as well.

[Horton]

@Ski_Dad Indmar is now part of Correct Craft. The new boat looks like a jet powered surf boat is that is even possible.