Radar question

[lefty]

Am looking into a new ski for 2024, currently on a vapour. Wondering g if anyone has an opinion on which would be more stable, a 67 vapour or a 66 senate. At my speed (34) , course ability(limited) and weight 170) I fit into both ranges. Also considering a Goode xtr team, either 66 or 67.   Goal for ‘24 is to be consistent at 22. Thx

[Laz]

First, I’m pleased that you spell vapour with a ‘I’.

I would say the Pro Build does not have any advantages over the Senate until you are at 13m or shorter.

[jjackkrash]

I do not believe there is a 66" Senate in the probuild trim.  65, 67, 69.  Specs on the 67:

67"

379.42 SQ"

7.16”

(width)

 

Specs on 67" Vapor:

67"

365.54 SQ”

6.957”

(width)

[jjackkrash]

The 67" Senate is .1" wider than a 68" Vapor and has very similar surface area.  It's going to put more ski under your foot than a same size Vapor if that's what you are looking for.  I am on a 68" Vapor right now and am going to give a 67" Senate a try in a few weeks to see if I like it coming off back surgery and maybe skiing at some slower speeds but shorter line lengths in training.  
 

68"

Vapor:   376.54 SQ”

7.061” (width)

 

[lefty]

Indeed a 65” senate is what I meant. 

[Ski_Dad]

hmmm a 65 senate vs a 66 Vapor would probably be about the same in stability.     You must have an older vapor?  

[jjackkrash]

2 hours ago, lefty said:

Indeed a 65” senate is what I meant. 

You are right at the top of the size chart for 65.  I'd consider and at least try the 67.

65"	351.10 SQ"	6.94"	34 MPH	COURSE	Up to 170 lbs / Up to 77 kg
67"	379.42 SQ"	7.16”	34 MPH	COURSE	160 – 200 lbs / 73 – 91 kg

 

[Stevie Boy]

My take on this you would find that the Vapor is much more nimble, or tho the Senate is more stable, personally I can,t get on with the Senate , they feel a bit pedestrian, I  much prefer the fighter jet compared to the passenger jet, in saying that a lot of people love them and ski very well on the Senate, I think it would be wise to demo both, different skis fit different people.

[thager]

I think you would find the Radar Vapor/Senate more comparable if you were to ride the "Senate Pro." Assuming you're talking a Vapor Pro. 

Flex matters. 

[Jaypro]

@thagerI agree.  I don't think you give up anything with the Senate Pro at your speed and line length.  I am ski about the same level as you, and could not be happier with the 24' senate Pro

[Horton]

I think it would be safe to say that no one at any level would regret buying the 2024 vapor.

[lefty]

@Ski_Dad-actually a 23 Vapor pro 66”. I find it maybe too reactive for my ability. I guess the question is as @jjackkrash po8nts out the 65 senate would have approximately the same area as a 66 Vapor but more under foot, so would that give me a bit more stability but still be able to turn it from less than optimal body position. As @Stevie Boy said the nimble feeling of the Vapor is great and I wonder how well I could get the 67 senate to come around, in which case a 67 vapour may be better. Certainly not the limiting factor but gives me some amusement while the lake still has a foot of ice on it

[jjackkrash]

Shorter skis are fun to crank and yoke but fun to crank and yoke isn't what you should be looking for in a ski, IMO.  

[Stevie Boy]

@lefty I  am anywhere between 170-180 lbs at any time on a 2023 67" vapor pro, skiing @32mph, love it. turns extremely well and fairly stable compared to previous models, as Horton pointed out, the 2024 vapor is probably better in all aspects.

I  am not technically close to perfect when I  ski, but I  can get the job done, my 2023 is the best ski to date, I have no plans to change it, for a while.

[BS74]

@lefty

I'm your weight and skied a 67 in Senate for the last couple years. It's a good ski but I always felt it was a bit large for me.  I also felt the 65 in would be too small.  I tried a KD Krypton Fusion and really like it.  It comes in a 66in and is similar in width to the Senate.  Good ski and half the price of Senate.  Also, you can demo it for cost of shipping.  Contact Scott at S lines if interested, he was great to work with.

[escmanaze]

On 2/24/2024 at 10:23 AM, Horton said:

I think it would be safe to say that no one at any level would regret buying the 2024 vapor.

 

How about this:  I'm 200 pounds and still have to occasionally drop down to 28 mph passes as my opener when I'm really skiing poorly or it has been a while off.  My 67" Senate seems *just* enough to make that work out.  

I still won't regret buying a 2024 67" vapor?  

[jjackkrash]

@escmanaze, in your use case, I would posit that your Vapor debate is between the 68 and 69.5, not the 67.  

[Ski2000]

@escmanaze I am close to your weight 195#. I tried a 67 Vapor and a 68, and I found that the 68 was right at what I needed for my slow broken stack position I get in from time to time. @ 30 mph I can run no problem. It gets better as I speed up although I dont 😅

[BGrow76]

I wish the Senate Pro came in a 66", would be a great ski!

[Nautique99]

I'm 6'4" 210 lbs and I ski most of my passes at 34/-15 and 34/-22.  In the past 6 years, I have owned two 68" Vapors.  My first ski was the one I learned on - it was a 2017 Vapor Pro Build, I was a beginner skier at the time, and I progressed in the slalom course from 28 mph to 34 mph at -15'.   Last year I got a new ski, a 2023 Vapor, 68".   Phenomenal ski, I absolutely love it. Performs great at 34 mph. I find it very stable, and very nimble - it honestly feels perfect. I ran -22 a handful of times last summer and began taking stabs at -28 at 34 mph.

 

I'm sure the Senate feels good too, but I like that the Vapor has more "upside" as I (hopefully) continue to progress and get into shorter line lengths.  Sure, the Vapor was a little slushy at 28 & 30 mph, but above that I never found it to be an issue.

[nichski]

Interesting thread on the Radar Senate Pro ski.  I am thinking about an upgrade from a 2014 66" HO A3.   I am an old guy who ski's 22' off 30-32 MPH.   I might get a few buoys into 28' off typically at 32 MPH.   Found a decent deal on a 2023 Senate Pro but have received info that the 2024 Senate Pro is a better ski than the 2023.    

 

What say the buoy chasers here?   

 

Thanks!

 

[Horton]

@nichski All Senates are based in Vapors. Previous Vapers were good but the 24 is bonkers great. I have not skied the 23 or 24 Senate but given the choice I would certainly opt for the 24 and Pro.

[jjackkrash]

I just ordered a '24 Vapor 68" and found a reasonably priced used '22 67" Senate Pro to try as well.  I suspect I'll be sticking with the Vapor but I want to see for myself.  I was under 200 today and plan on mostly starving until I hit 190 lbs.  I'm stoked for this  season though.  

[jjackkrash]

By the way, I have one 66" and one 68" 22/23 generation Vapor Pro Build for sale.   Both one-season skis in great cosmetic and structural shape.   Send me a PM if interested.  

[nichski]

19 hours ago, Horton said:

@nichski All Senates are based in Vapors. Previous Vapers were good but the 24 is bonkers great. I have not skied the 23 or 24 Senate but given the choice I would certainly opt for the 24 and Pro.

@Horton thanks for the feedback.   What are your thoughts about a 2024 Vapor running 30 MPH?   Radar literature states the Vapor is for 32-36 MPH.   I start the season off running mostly 30 MPH then start bumping to 32 MPH, rarely running 34 MPH.     If you think the Vapor will perform well at 30 MPH, what length should I use 66" or 67"?  My weight is 160-170#.     

Thanks for your input. 

[Kimbymon]

38 minutes ago, nichski said:

@Horton thanks for the feedback.   What are your thoughts about a 2024 Vapor running 30 MPH?   Radar literature states the Vapor is for 32-36 MPH.   I start the season off running mostly 30 MPH then start bumping to 32 MPH, rarely running 34 MPH.     If you think the Vapor will perform well at 30 MPH, what length should I use 66" or 67"?  My weight is 160-170#.     

Thanks for your input. 

My opener is 26mph and I run up into 32mph. I have had no issues with the vapor at even those slow speeds.

[Horton]

@nichski I thought this was a close call so I ran it past the folks at Radar and they said that unless you're over 5'11 the 66 Vapor is the right ski for you.

call the guys at @perfski they will hook you up.

[nichski]

@Horton Thanks a bunch for your assistance!   I will give the folks @perfski a call. 

 

[lefty]

Thanks all for lots to consider. Thinking I will start will a 67 vapour and see how it goes 

[BSBELL]

I weigh 215-220 and just bought a 2024 Senate Pro 69" after trying one out in Florida. Wow, what an upgrade from a 69" Union! 

The ski feels much more nimble but in a way more stable going through the wakes, if that makes sense?

A vapor sounds cool, but this will hold me over for a very long time. I don't see myself skiing in the 34-36mph range for quite some time, if ever...

[Slalom.Steve]

I will preface this by saying I'm a Radar fanboy and I've gone from a 2016 Lithium to 2022 Pro to 2024 Pro.

But... if the Radar team and Radar users both recommend that even skiers at slower speeds and longer lines use a Vapor over a Senate, why does Radar even produce/sell the Senate? What's the target demographic/who is "supposed" to buy a Senate then, if not course skiers at slower speeds and longer lines?

Edited March 1 by Slalom.Steve

[jjackkrash]

At the risk of overstepping, I have been told by several Radar insiders that if your max speed is 32 and you are not super short line you want a Senate; but the Vapor is the better ski for 34 and 36 in most cases.  But, you can still ski on a Vapor at slower speeds if it's sized right.  So if you start at 30 and progress into 34 or 36 nothing wrong with going Vapor. 

That said, my buddy skis exclusively at 34  and no slower and runs deep into -35 and is looking hard a -38 and you could not pry his Senate Pro out of his cold dead hands.  So, really, I think the answer is get them sized right for your application and give them both a try.  I personally think I'd be on a Senate if they made a 68.  But I am also going to try the 67 that I have coming just to see for myself.    

 

[lefty]

@jjackkrash-assuming  your buddy tried a vapour at some point?  And is he at one end or the other of the weight range of the senate?

 

[jjackkrash]

@lefty he's been on a version of a Senate as long as I can remember and now on last years Senate Pro.  Not sure what he's demoed or not demoed.  He's around 175 IIRC with some seasonal fluctuation upward a bit on 67.  So light to middle of the size chart.  Which is one reason why I wish there was a 68 senate to try for my 200 lbs. frame (196 last night before carb up yeah!).  

[thager]

@jjackkrash I am same wt. as you and skied a 2019 67" Senate Pro until last year. Ran into -35 @ 34 on it. 

[jjackkrash]

35 minutes ago, thager said:

@jjackkrash I am same wt. as you and skied a 2019 67" Senate Pro until last year. Ran into -35 @ 34 on it. 

I have a 67" coming mid march to try.  And I am going to cut some between now and then so thanks for the encouragement.  

[MatadorMaine]

Personally I'm holding out and waiting for the Senate Pro+ release. 😜 #SenatePro+  

 

[coach3]

I have a 2024 Vapor Pro, 66" for sale. I am getting a new knee. Ski is basically new. $1280 great deal.

[jjackkrash]

I got the new vapor set up long/deep and stock binding settings; now if it wasn't mixed snow and gale warnings out I'd take her for a spin.  😞

[thager]

Long/deep?

[Horton]

@thager Yeah the definitions are becoming fuzzy. 

Long/Deep us something like below. 2.480 is not very shallow and 6.963 is long. It is a big fin and feels great on the 24 Vapor. 

• 30 1/8th (Vapor boot)
• 9
• 2.480
• 6.953
• .752

[jjackkrash]

2 hours ago, jjackkrash said:

I got the new vapor set up long/deep and stock binding settings; now if it wasn't mixed snow and gale warnings out I'd take her for a spin.  😞

Edit, g*d damn it, typing too fast and thinking too slow.  short/deep.  2.500/6.845/.760/30 1/4  

[Horton]

@jjackkrash I strongly suggest you try the Long/Deep. Because I am a little pig-headed, I struggled to find the right settings on this ski. Once I landed on these settings I found how really good the ski is.

[jjackkrash]

4 minutes ago, Horton said:

@jjackkrash I strongly suggest you try the Long/Deep. Because I am a little pig-headed, I struggled to find the right settings on this ski. Once I landed on these settings I found how really good the ski is.

Are you on a 67 or 68?  It needs to get a little warmer before I play with settings but I will come back to this thread in late April.  

[Horton]

67

[Cnewbert]

@coach3 good luck with your knee surgery!  I had robotic assisted (CORI) minimally invasive quadriceps sparring knee placement surgery one year ago today.   I had 124˚ ROM the very next day and was slalom skiing exactly 42 days after the surgery.  I hope yours goes as well and you're back on the water soon!

[coach3]

Thanks so much. did you have a partial? what brand of hardware?

[WoodySkier]

I’m about 190 and ski 22-28 off at 32 mph.  I’m on a Senate Pro and it is an awesome ski.  I’m a radar fanboy and I’ve had 3 lithium versions of Vapors and 2 versions of the senate in the last 8 years.  My skiing has been much more consistent on the Senate than any version of the Vapor, If you’re skiing 32 mph or less you shouldn’t be on a Vapor Pro.  The Senate Pro is a high end course ski with just a touch more stability than the Vapor, it’s capable well into short line.

[jjackkrash]

On 3/6/2024 at 7:31 PM, WoodySkier said:

I’m about 190 and ski 22-28 off at 32 mph.  I’m on a Senate Pro and it is an awesome ski. 

What size?  I hit a dry 194 today and have a 67" coming.  I am motivated to keep cutting into the 180s.    

Although I got two free-ski sets in on the '24 68" vapor today in 42 degree water and even in the miserable cold water this ski feels like a real winner.  

[lefty]

@WoodySkierwhat year senate pro?