BraceMaker

Significance is in the repeatability. It's like the joke where the museum guide is asked how old the skeleton is and he says 60,000,006 years. The guest says wow that's a really precise number how do you know, oh well it was 60,000,000 years old when I started working here. So if you can only measure repeatable +/- .004 well you're not chasing .001 If you have a machine square exactly .5" wide hook that over the tail down the fin then extend the caliper square to that and remove the .5" and you'll get extremely accurate measurements there.

@mlange I wouldn't do that. Those surfaces need to be flat and a palm sander is going to round off the edges no matter how hard you try. I don't even like the idea of the steel wool. For small overspray I usually use a flat razor blade. If there is rust or I need to check for high spots I use a sheet of plate glass with pressure sensitive abrasive film from 3M stuck to the sheet its essentially dead flat and then you try to work the whole area evenly while rotating the glass and sliding so that you can lap the surface dead nuts flat. But then again the local NAPA by me has a machinist and small projects like that are affordable vs. the effort. If you have a glass shop locally I was able to buy quite a few different sized bits of fairly thick glass and have it tempered. When they make custom glass they cut sheets to size and then temper it. So if you call them up and see if they have any drops that you can buy they're usually happy to sell it to you for not too much money.

That would suck if they're actually powdercoated I'd be bringing that to the machinist and having them cleaned up if that's the case.

Do you have a ski stand of any description? If not it's far harder you need 2 hands free and the ski needs to sit still. The tip on your sandal works great for measuring dft but setting it that way doesn't work. Also you need a fin knocker snug your screws a bit and tap then remeasure, move set screws tap and remeasure. If the fin moves with out a tap the measurement will move when you snug the box.

That style of binding I would give a hard pass. It's really what I would consider a boot for combo skis the adjustment is one size fits no one and the risk is you want more support so you tighten it down and then you get hurt. They also arent that much easier to get into. Fiddling with lace locks and such sucks. Nothing faster than a wileys bit of lube and squish you're in. That's faster than most hardshells and in practice hardshells you have the double and triple checking for safety and your liner rituals.

Put the fin box in a bench vice tap a torqs bit into the Allen then wiggle it back and forth the tapping in usually breaks the threads free

I agree. But with a few hundred kids skiing each of those kids having a couple of relatives who might watch and the running order taking some time I think you do get a group of people who would tune in. I don't think I'm saying its worth TWBC but I do think those relatives like it. Of course there is always that professional photographer putting up shots from the event with their watermark so you can buy pictures from your kids set and how many shots do they sell over the course of 4 days. Probably not that many.

@skierjp that's not entirely fair I know quite a few people particularly aunts and uncles and grand parents who got a real kick being able to watch their family ski. If the juice is worth the squeeze... well that's hard to tell. Of course 4 lakes adds cost and complexity but it does fix the issue you mentioned there isn't enough content on one lake at one time to really have thrilling events. The content that was on TWBC around Kaifas and San Gervasio pro-am was excellent but that just goes to the power of the commentary that was being provided by Freddie and Matteo and Robert etc. But if you have 4 lakes running you have enough skiers in motion to really keep action going on film. Of course a lot of that action isn't necessarily that thrilling but if you could just have essentially plain live feed running on 4 youtube channels and then a single channel running commentary pulling action as needed from the lakes. I think you'd have fairly compelling watching. Enough to get the viewership high enough for people to watch it? Maybe.

I mean yes but this is 2023 - failing any other source.... find a source. SBC have two different sizes of hardware and a torque sequence that is a torque amount and then a torque angle, you bring them to torque with a torque wrench and then switch to a torque angle gauge and then you go around twice with that torque angle gauge to the correct setting IF you are using the torque to yield hardware. Its 22ft lbs and then a 90 degree torque and then another torque to 50 or 90 degrees depending on the hardware and then a final pass to torque the small bolts around the outside. This is not a go inside out semi-circular motion type of guess work. My suggestion about studs is based on if you're going to take them off the studs are re-usable and stronger.

Personally I'd be calling up ARP and getting a set of head studs shipped out. They should know what the proper product would be or the questions about it and on a boat even more reason to skip torque to yield hardware buy once cry once.

@aupatking Yes I am saying Malibu was at fault. I think a manufacturer who makes a product doesn't get a free pass based on what the end user's skill or knowledge or abilities are. I would go so far as to say the contributory negligence finding was a poor judgement and let Malibu off the hook for what could have been a much harsher judgement. I'll lay it out. Malibu was on record in the lawsuit that they took a boat that didn't have an open bow and they put one in it, cut a hole in the bow dropped in seats, sold it. They didn't do anything to evaluate their design. They are on record in the lawsuit saying they didn't even toss a few 100lb sand bags up there and drive the thing around they just started making boats with a hole in the bow and tossing seats in there. Which brings up the motive, why would you make the product? Well simply market share. You want that person who is comparison shopping to go Four Winns horizon 19, seats 8, open bow, V8 engine, 19 feet long. Malibu Response, 19 feet, V8 engine open bow seats 8. But this one's a ski boat. So I can have all the things I want, I can put my kids in the front and tool around the lake in a product that is exactly the same as this 4 winns. And that buyer has made an assumption about the design the company has undergone. He reasonably assumes that both of these brands in the design and testing phases of those boats have done the same work so that their products have similar safety margins because that's how product design works. And you can be certain the sales guy at the dealership that had the open bow Malibu on offer wasn't going out of their way to dissuade the potential buyers of the boats from their decision to buy the Malibu vs. going across the street and buying the 4 winns. You are making the assumption that all the buyers are people who have been around ski boats, I am making the assumption that Malibu made their business decisions to sell their product to people who would have otherwise bought a different product. My comments about the difference in handling between these boats is based on personal experience. That's not something a manufacturer of a product can rely on. And yes I would go so far as to say that I personally believe that if you are mastercraft or nautique you at least bothered to test your product out on the water during the design phase. Having driven the response and driven the mastercraft 205s in question the 205 is a far more seaworthy boat. I don't think that was accidental.

Ouch. Thought so the moment the ski came out looked like that heel popped

By big moves enough to make a clear decision what is better more so that actual measurement. If you have microjust and you cannot tell if its better or worse or the same by moving it one tooth at a time then go 4 teeth. Is it better worse or the same? If no different go 4 teeth the opposite direction from stock. Better worse or same. Once you decide which way is better fine tune.

Yes they do - but those boats are nothing like a Malibu Response. Anchor a 19' Four Winns next to your Malibu Response and compare how they sit in the water - I can save you the trouble. I can stand next to our boats at the sand bar and reach over the side of the ski boat into the side skin and grab sunscreen. I have to jump to get over the side of our 19' run about. I can tie the ski boat up to the pontoon with bumpers, the rub rail on the run about would break the window on our ski boat, it sits nearly a foot higher in the water. The two boats side by side in the shed? Same thing I can reach into the ski boat on the trailer, I have to climb up to get into the runabout, the bunks are the same heights on the trailer. The two types of boats are nothing similar in terms of seaworthiness, we'll take the ski boat and slog across going 12 mph spray coming over the sides to a protected cove and then the runabout will rip back and forth high and dry with a load of people. And yes we have people with those little boston whalers like the teens with their canopy on them and those boats are far more seaworthy than an open bow ski boat. I'd take a 12' whaler on the great lakes to a Malibu Response with people up in the bow against a wake boat.

@Luzz how are you doing? Hope that paw is OK.

@Drago take a ski that skis well for you as is. Measure your front binding. Make a note of where that number is vs. factory - 29.75 instead of 29.5 - start that 1/4" more on other skis and then move it. Of all the potential settings on a ski boot position is the no brainer run it forwards and backwards big moves till you find what feels better and then refine it.

Nothing about this verdict changes the true utility of these boats. But a group of skiers saying don't people who buy these open bow ski boats know better than to have people in the bow??? Is disingenuous. The vast majority of buyers of an open bow boat on this forum did so because they felt the resale was better. Because that's true and it's only true because the buyers think they can use the open bow. So we talk out of both sides or our mouthed unironically where we buy the Prostar and we buy it with bow cover and upholstery and then leave the upholstery in the garage and the cover on. And I get it my rear seat lives in my garage and I have a closed bow boat and I think it would be absurd to do any real skiing with people in the bow of a ski boat. So if you have more people than fit one sits behind the driver on a cooler and leans up against the driver seat. When done they sit on the cooler in the back because ski boats seat 3 people...

Just file out those holes no big deal.

@Justinspaff what to you is aggression? Like the ski suddenly doing a hockey stop turn, stalling hard, and then you having to do a tug of war with the boat or?

True but Malibu is essentially admitting that they have zero design stating the bow is safe to occupy in any of those hulls and therefore the easiest route is to state that its not to be occupied underway. This is probably something the whole industry will experience as a ripple but that's a good thing afterall no one complains that natural gas now has odor to make sure you don't blow up your house...

@MitchellM I was certainly in the minority around this discussion when the lawsuit was happening but do tell what changes your view of this boat unfavorably? Could it be that a person shopping for a boat assumes that all boats with bow seating and a capacity label should be safe to use for the intended purpose - that form follows function? We've all watched the qualified captain reels of people bow riding but every boat manual I've ever read expressly forbids sitting on the gunwale while in motion (seen plenty of people sit on the side of a ski boat while running back to the dock who wants to drip all over and get the seat wet) To be fair Malibu sold its assets (and liabilities) between the design and the lawsuit but under deposition testimony admitted that they literally cut a hole in a boat, installed seats, sold it as an open bow no testing, no warning sticker. Its like if Ford sold you an F150 convertible and then when you hooked a trailer to it the frame broke in the middle and they turned to you and went no no no this was a convertible not a truck it doesn't tow! would you tow with your Porsche? We didn't test this for towing, why did you assume it worked like our other F150 trucks (but we didn't label it that it doesn't)?

Just like any measuring tape you need the one you don't know where it is, the other one you don't know where it is, and the one someone stole. There's also the non-zero chance that Horton is just making snap bracelets as a hobby?

My bag is really just some misc. hardware a few boot buckles, repair kit for boat, a spare liner (not heat formed), and then a screwdriver and allen key. A spare swimsuit, a spare hat, a spare set of glasses and then I keep a small assortment of medical items Important - I keep a pack of immodium in case you get the trots at the lake.

@bananaron I run a single plate with a microjust so that I can move everything as a unit and not introduce a variable and have my rear toe basically touching the front boot 11.5 shoes. Was just asking because if you move just one and increase the spread you're introducing variables. I've always liked the visual of thinking of the boot position in reference to how much tail you have. Where as it makes sense intuitively to think that moving the bindings forwards moves your center of balance on the ski forwards and should engage the tip more and turn more you've also just made "more" tail. 100% of that tail is wet. How much of that new "tip" is actually in the water? So I tend to think bindings forwards is just more ski not more tip of the ski and if anything its more tail of the ski because you get 100% of that additional ski volume behind your feet and you only get whatever fraction of that change in front.

Patellar pain can be dealt with a few ways. The most direct would be to wear some form of stabilizing knee brace, generally speaking the bone drifts laterally and you'd use a brace with a J shaped pad to block this motion. You could also tape. But also your leg extension muscles the quadriceps have 4 (quad) compartments and those different muscle groups can be strengthened. A shortcut hack is to climb stairs backwards. Find something around your house or in your community and just walk up stairs backwards, focus on the front knee for deep water starts but if both knees hurt do this for both sides just slowly go up stairs backwards. It sounds stupid but it works. But focusing effort into the inner most of those muscles will help google Vastus medialis strengthening. Your knee extensors and butt work similarly both do the same job so a bad knee will sometimes mean you have to use your butt. They work together though so work on both!