Snow skiing Vs Slalom skiing (same or different)

[apodawil]

So i see and hear alot of pro Slalom skiers snow skiing in the off season.  My question to you guys is what do you thing is the same and what is different about the two?  

 Alan/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-cool.gif  
   

[RichardDoane]

snow skiing is way colder than water skiing during the winter in the Pacific NW

[skier2788]

well, considering I just started snow skiing I can't give you a great answer but from my experience the two biggest advantages are that it works your knees and since it is usually at high altitudes it keeps your cardio as close to your late season ability as possible. I have tried running and doing all kinds of cardio in the off season but nothing beats doing a workout at 13,000 feet. Keeping your legs and back strong is also a plus. I also feel that most waterskiers are very competitive and would rather be doing a sport outside than sitting in a gym for a majority of the day.

[countymountie]

If there was a strong crossover between the two sports, I would be ripping 39s in stead of struggling with 15 off!  On the snow, I can hit almost any big mountain and run most of their trails and then go off trail,on the water however;.............it's a work in progress.

[ral]

countymountie,

without trying to offend or anything like that, the equivalent to rip 39s is to be around the same time on a GS or DH than Daron Rahlves and Hermann Maier, not to hit almost any mountain...

[kona]

Water is just tempurture challenged snow ? The proof of this is as follows. I was once asked where does the white in the snow go when it melts, After a moment of thought I replied " to the bottom of the lakes and rivers and when the wind blows it comes back up to the surface, hence White Caps and once your lake freezes its white again. So logically water is tempurture challenged snow. http://www.ballofspray.com/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-tongue-out.gif Other than that they have nothing in common.  Now wakeboarders and Snowboarders, well dont get me started on that one.

[Chris Rossi]

Just skiing around the mountain in the winter is helpful for conditioning, but will not transfer to your on the water technique advances.  Understanding the carved turn in snow skiing is crucial. I spent a long time reading snow ski books to fully understand it.  Then I spent many snow ski seasons perfecting my carved turn (I have a ways to go!).  This starts on the groomers as it is easiest to learn there.  Once you can do carved turns on the groomer, its time to really challenge yourself.  Take a black diamond run and do your best to carve through the given conditions.  Then you take that to the ultimate and try to ski as fast as you can (while still being in control), on all slopes, while applying as much of a carving philosophy as possible.  This is what I spend my winter doing.  When I come back to waterskiing, I am in tip top shape and I have spent all winter carving turns at speed that are faster than 36mph.  The closer you can come to a carved turn in waterskiing, the more speed you will finish your waterski turn with.  If you are going faster when you hook up after the turn, you have a higher top speed possible behind the boat.  This translates to coming into the next buoy on an earlier line.  Another thing snow skiing does is get me used to skiing in less than ideal conditions.  If I can come close to carving on a crud filled steep slope, than when I waterski in windy or rolly water, I am less distracted/effected.

[wawaskr]

I'm sorry, but everytime I see one of those articles in WS mag on the subject, I have to laugh...wow guy's who spend 90 percent of the year in FL are showing technique on the snow....ha...ha.  I grew up chattering the ice and breaking bamboo at Buck Hill in MN.  Before you laugh, google Linsey Vaughn.....I personally think comparing the two is somewhat of a "I have nothing to write about in the off season" comparison.

[ral]

Googling Linsey Vaughn yields fewer results than googling Lindsey Vonn...

[Marco]

I see some similarities in some, not all, areas.  As Rossi said, both disciplines involve riding an edge, (carving a turn).  A perfectly carved GS turn is similar to a waterski turn, ideally with speed being maintained at the finish of the turn.  A lot of things have to be done right to achieve the 'perfect' turn in snow and on water.  That is a topic unto itself.

Another similarity I find is the loading and unloading of the ski.  In both sports, the ski loads near the finish of the turn, storing energy that creates rebound which assists in unweighting, facilitating a quick, easy edge change and creating rythm.  Think steep fall line or bump skiing.

One last similarity that comes to mind is the positioning of the lower and upper body.  In fall line snow skiing, the upper body should be quiet and stay open downhill (down course), with the lower body moving in the direction of travel.

I wish waterskiing came as naturally as snow skiing...

[baja]

Rossi and Marco have it right. The carved snow ski turn and rolling your edge change while still outbound in the turn is very similar, at least in the compression, release and the mental side... Commit to an edge

[Dirt]

I enjoy reading anything Rossi writes down. I snow skied with a really good snow and water skier last week and he told me the same thing about carving.

[Mateo_Vargas]

Smart, you shouldn't talk to yourself when you are skiing alone.

[disland]

So Chris, My question is why dont all you slalom stars, from Utah, Tahoe or Whistler who get to spend every winter in the mountains race gates. I dont get to snow ski as much as I would like but when i do I love the challenge of racing and running gates

[Marco]

I'll take the steep and deep over gates any day.  Thats where the adrenaline is... (well, downhill is pretty fun too!)

[disland]

If you watched Wengen today there is no shortage of adrenaline at that place.

[Deanoski]

I have been snow skiing and water skiing since I was 4yrs old there are some things that are simalar like stay square to the fall line or the back of the boat.

I still race a few times each yr, I'm lucky enougth to be able to ski/ train with the locol ski team MRST   mission ridge ski team .

In the summer I have skied mt hood in the am niced hard ice then water skied a set or two in the after noon.  That is always fun! 

ski fast

think short 

Deano 

  

[slow]

Snow Ski racing

Level Head

Level shoulders

Body facing the fall line

No leaning in 

Early edge change and feet sweep underneath you 

sounds about the same to me

BTW Deanoski my kids are in SSRA Spokane Ski Racing Association.

 

[jimbrake]

For even more adrenaline, just wait for Kitzbuhel.

[swc5150]

Interesting discussion!  I alpine ski raced from age 7 to 18.  Attended summer race camping at Mt Hood every year.  Raced select champs, divisionals, JO's, etc, but have never once competed in waterskiing.  Ironicall, from my experience, I've found the exact opposite to be true with most competitive waterskiers. 

When I first started trying running buoys at about 13 years old, I used to think back then that it was similar to GS, and pretty much tried to ski like I was running a GS course.  I didn't have a waterski coach, so I didn't know any better.  I still have have pics of myself skiing back then, and if the term "counter-rotation" existed, that's how people would've described my "style".   

About 4 years ago, I started skiing with an old baller on a regular basis, and he thought I had an odd looking form.  In fact, he refered to it as "lacking"!  At the time, he had never heard of the west coast thing, and I had only read the term in WS mag, not really caring what it was all about.  The only thing I knew was that I was 5'8", never had a lick of coaching, and could run consistent -32' passes at 34; good enough for the girls I go out with!  Fast forward a couple of years, he bought the Syderhoud video on west coast slalom, and low and behold, they were mimicking snow skiing on water. 

Patience, control and a quiet upper body was pounded into my head from years of alpine coaching, and I just used the same concept when waterskiing, as it just kind of worked for me.  With all that said, I think the two are very alike, and am actually suprised it took so long for ballers to discover it.   

 

 

[6balls]

It took so long because, as mentioned above, back in the days of hand-driven 240 hp boats things were different.  A weight lifting hack like myself w/no coaching, but tons of power, could hurt the boat all the way to running 35 off at 36 mph on occasion.  It wasn't pretty, but it worked.  The first PP tourney I skied resulted in 4 consecutive slow boat times on my 28 off opener as they kept adding skier weight.     

More power and ZO forces a change to the more efficient style you have skied with all along.  It's not easy and most tell me I still pull too hard, but I'm really trying!

      

[Dirt]

I am not sure I buy that zo more efficient theory...don't mean to offend anyone but I think awsa usaws may have allowed a switch to imo an inferior product that has split the sport. Those who are zo converts have access to a zo boat for practice.

[eleeski]

While the required skill sets are similar and many waterskiers are competent snow skiers, snow skiing is not even close to a substitute for waterskiing. Enjoy both social dynamic sports for what they are - fun.

Snow skiing and waterskiing do share one true similarity - keeping bindings on Goode skis!

So I'm dancing down the zipper line in VW sized bumps following Ryan Nason (open tricker and skilled M1 slalomer) with Alan Podawiltz (M2 overall champ) in trail. We had just watched unofficialsquaw.com's GNAR so even while there was some FWSA bump contest over on Red Dog the real competition was right there on Broken Arrow. I'm dropping Alan and just about to score the extra points for calling out "I'm better than you!" to Ryan when my right ski goes loose. At least I didn't tomahawk in - that would have cost serious points. The heel piece pulled out of my Goode!

Now I really like my Goodes. These skis are old - about 4 years which is about twice as long as I get out of any skis. And the binding that pulled out was the replacement heelpiece (the Goodes outlived the Salomon bindings!). Old Goodes still are the best on soft snow. But Bode and Linsey are really doing well on Head skis. So I have a decision to make on which ski to get. Do I want Goode or do I want Head?

Eric

[jimbrake]

Eric,

I whispered a message to Alan Podawiltz, but not sure if he got it. Will you let him know to email me at brake at geoconinc dot com?

thanks,

Jim

PS - go with Head. Everytime.

[Horton]

I have a 68" Fischer .... no that is a Razor... oooppps that is a water ski. whatever

[thager]

I would go with the hybrid which can be really really hard to find! Very expensive I am told.

[eleeski]

If I go with one ski brand on each foot, which foot should I put which ski on to get what I want?

Eric

[Dirt]

Eric, how is the snow? It has been warm up there during the day and freezing at night.

[eleeski]

In the sun it was great. In the shade it was awful.

With a broken ski I've hightailed it back to San Diego. I'm waiting for the fog to lift before heading out to the lake. Maybe I'll get a waterski set in. Weather is better for waterskiing right now.

I'm going to try Big Bear this weekend - run some gates and sip some single malt. Wait for storms or summer.

Eric

[Dirt]

You have a rough life!

[Deanoski]

slow, I'm also the nw head sale rep!

 

I work for Head!!  no really! 

 

Deano

[otisg]

One of the early definitive books on snow ski racing was written by Warren Witherell - H2O Hall of Famer. “How the Racer’s Ski†it is available at Amazon.

http://www.waterskihalloffame.com/Halloffame/warren_witherell1984HOF.html

 

http://www.amazon.com/How-Racers-Ski-Warren-Witherell/dp/0393303446/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1295615088&sr=8-1-spell

 He was a great help to me (and others who venture on to this site) as kid growing up in & on Lake Placid in both sports. I haven't read his book lately but I am sure there is still a great deal of useful information in there...  despite the great changes brought about by the "shaped" skis in snow skiing and the huge advances in the science of materials which have vastly helped to change both sports. I was absent from waterskiing for about thirty or so years, so I am not quite sure how the change in soft H20- Slalom technique from stiff legged through the wakes evolved to knees bent ? may have evolved from snow skiing -seems logical to me but I don't know. But it seems to be a "no brainer" that by using one’s quads & biceps is going to give one much better acceleration across course than biceps and stiff-legged leveraging. The one thing that you can get away with in soft water slalom skiing that would cause you to never finish a single run of snow slalom skiing (particularly with the tiny skis & the way that courses are set) is "counter-rotating" the turn. It took too much time to wind up in one direction in and then unwind to the other direction and was obsolete in my day - can't even imagine it now. But it seems to work fairly well in soft water skiing where the course is exactly repetitive and predictable. Warren's book is worth a look.........

 

[ral]

That book was great in 1988, ski racing technique has changed A LOT since then. 

A better one for 2011 would be 

http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Skiing-Ron-LeMaster/dp/0736079599/ref=pd_sim_b_2

 Just compare the skier's position in both covers and you will see how different they are. 

[jimbrake]

'88? That book came out in '72! It was all about "carving" when no one talked about it or taught it at the time (other than race coaches). You can still glean some nuggets from it.

[Deanoski]

Head owns Tyrolia,

 

Tyrolia makes bindings for the followingf ski company's Head,Fischer, Elan, amplid, 4fornt,Kneissel,and Palmer

 

 

Jim shoot me ane-mail !!

 

Deano

durenski@charter.net

[Chef23]

I have a pair of Head boots and picked up a pair of Head skis on closeout in the spring and I really enjoyed them my first couple of days.

[jimbrake]

That Ron LeMaster book is so cool. I have several of his montages in my garage/ski tuning room. Now I just need to create some in the slalom course!

[ral]

Jim,

drop me an e-mail, rodrigo dot andai at mincom dot com.

I think I can send you something you will appreciate...

[normanwenzel]

it is very difficult to buy into the use of snow skiing skills around the ball. Pull out gate west coast i see it but it around the ball all I get is break at the wait. When I watch the vid-article from Terry Winter I see West Coast style only at the pull out for the gate the rest of course is counter rotate with hip up, back on the handle and across the wake. no snow skiing there that I can see.  Can someone shed some light on what the hips should be doing and how that is related to snow skiing? I really enjoyed the article on the front page but after further review I have some questions and am hoping someone out here can explain in more detail. Also has anyone read the handle control article? how would that apply to snow skiing? of course no handle unless it is ski jouring behind a horse. but hands with poles in them what are they doing in relation to the concept of handle control?

Just want to slalom better and stuck at 32

Kind regards,

 

Norm

[RichardDoane]

norm - if you want to beat the -32 loop, run more -28's, when you can run 4 28's in a row, the -32 will come easy (if you stay on the handle).

[normanwenzel]

yea it is a nice thought but I am still looking for a opinion of how and where the hips are in this illistration of snow skiing and water skiing when getting back on the handel.

 seem to me that if at the end of those nice turns getting on the the handle might result in out the front.

[swc5150]

You really need to watch a World Cup GS race to get a better idea - comparing the best in the world (snow) to the best in the world (water), both on courses.  The "west coast" line through the course is very similar to alipne GS, as is the body position from the hips up.

[Drago]

I'm convinced that given a year and a salary I could write an article with 8 x 10 color glossy photos and all kinds of technical info that could prove that the two sports are exactly the same. Or that they have no similiarites whatsoever....

[PJ]

with a paragraph on the back explaining what each one was?

[Drago]

Exactly . You got it pj

[kona]

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn55/rjb427/aw_jeez_not_this_shit_again2.jpg?t=1297298817http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn55/rjb427/aw_jeez_not_this_shit_again2.jpg?t=1297298817Black and White are the same. They are both colors.

[jimbrake]

Drago,

I agree. Unless you are really into both and have a good understanding of both, what's the point? I don't think trying to explain the physics and biomechanics of snow skiing to a water (only) skier will help them in much and vice versa. It's fun for me to think about the similarities, but I'm over trying to explain it to either side.

Jim

[eleeski]

Would those be the photos from Alice's Restaurant? I'm not blind yet - I do need glasses though.

I just got out of a snow ski clinic. Hard snow so we spent all the time on groomers. The instructor harassed me about my "waterski" body position. I was supposed to break (sideways) at the waist. I was leaning into the turn too much with my upper body lined up over my hips. Gravity pulls from across the whole body. Angulate the lower body to get better edging in snow. My snow ski instructor was right.

If your upper body (where the pull comes from in waterskiing) is not lined up with your waterski you will not be able to maximize the force you can apply on the ski (edge). Now if you are really strong and quick, maybe you can angulate more edge and still resist the pull of the boat. But I can't.

That seems to me to be a significant fundamental difference.

Eric

[JohnN]

My feeling is that there's more similiarity than not, particularly from the waist down.  Biggest difference to me is that on snow your core is used to move the upper body forward to stay in alignment, and on water the core is used to keep the upper body back to stay in alignment.  But...

 The kids have a ski coach now who's super-emphasizing a long transition period between turns, and the turns happen quickly from rise-line to fall-line (think the line straight down the buoy line).  It's an interesting concept, one that is pretty apparent in many of the top Euro racers (and US like Ligety).  The sound is the best indicator - you can hear them engage in the turn, and then the skis are almost silent across to the start of the next turn.  Hard to do for someone like me who likes to hold onto that nice carving feeling too long.  Now it's got me wondering if there's a way to apply this to water skiing and if it makes sense.  Sort of a quick, high speed turn with an early edge release and a long, light load across the wakes.  I have no idea whether it's even something worth exploring, but I'm getting the itch just thinking about it.

John

 

[bmiller3536]

slalom skiing ...  one ski getting pulled by 330 horse power boat...holding onto a rope and handle...wearing shorts and a life jacket...goal to round 6 buoys and keep a tight line...shorten the rope as you complete passes..sit for a minute and then say hit it

Snow skiing....two skis getting pulled by gravity...holding two poles in your hands...wearing snow jacket hat and everything else to keep you warm..goal to make it down the hill without falling...maybe try a more difficult slope as you make it down the hill...ride up a ten miknute lift

 

The only similarity is that they both have skiing in the name and you have to bend your knees...most athletic sports required bent knees