Baller Bulldog Posted October 22, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 22, 2012 Hi everyone, with the big news coming down in another sport (Cycling) this morning, it made me think that our sport is mostly free of any scandals other than the Dr Jim movable course case. My question is: are there any other scandals that have happened? Its only October and I am very bored.... "Do Better..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted October 22, 2012 Baller_ Share Posted October 22, 2012 Is there even drug testing in our sport? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller skibug Posted October 22, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 22, 2012 Does it even matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ntx Posted October 22, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 22, 2012 Skiers that ski on international teams. (pan-ams, worlds) are random drug tested. About a year ago, a Canadian Wakeboarded that placed in a international event had a positive test and had to surrender his medal. Always rumors about handle section lengths. In our sport how would a cheater benefit? There are no $$$ gains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Sullivan Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Is Dr. Jim the guy that rigged his slalom course? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countymountie Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 @Sully Yep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted October 22, 2012 Baller_ Share Posted October 22, 2012 Never understood how he pulled that off. Was he the only human building that course and installing it??? No one saw or questioned the build or installation?? Not sure the mechanics of it but it had to look like no other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted October 22, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 22, 2012 The amazing bit is that it wan't visible until they dropped the extra bouys for jump and trick into the lake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted October 22, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 22, 2012 The amazing thing is not that he built a cable driven slalom course when the lake was built. The amazing thing is that he pulled the wool over Schnitz and Matt Rini's eyes somehow , making them look like idiots after they talked him up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ToddL Posted October 22, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 22, 2012 The only other scandal in skiing that I know of is that @ShaneH has the same number of stars as I have... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted October 22, 2012 Baller_ Share Posted October 22, 2012 @BraceMaker What made it visible or what was visible when dropping the extra buoy in for jump and trick. I thought someone saw it move. @ntx yep no money in it but look what Dr Jim did and there wasn't a dime in it for him (I think). Just the opposite. I'm sure building that course was not cheep. It was all about bragging rights. Still don't see how he made that without being questioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted October 23, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2012 Thing is it is very difficult to see distance between centerline and turn balls on open water with out a reference point. That's why when you install courses it helps to have survey equipment to spot the angles as you can always do some trig. The Iconic images are still on waterskimag.com http://waterskimag.com/features/2005/06/09/malibu-open-scandal-photographic-evidence-of-buoygate/ Fact is, with out the extra bouys placed for a three event tournament, it is damned difficult to reference the motion of bouys, particularly if done slowly. http://waterskimag.com/files//2009/09/wpid-drj-afterbuoys-368x250.jpg http://waterskimag.com/files//2009/09/wpid-drj-beforebuoys-368x250.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted October 23, 2012 Baller_ Share Posted October 23, 2012 Ok, so know I'm thinkn he was just stupid. With all the effort to make them move in, how could you not factor that in. Is that him skiing?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankS Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I set my pb on his site. I hope that the course was at full length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted October 23, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2012 @wish - I don't think I could tell you the appropriate positioning of jump and trick course balls in relation to a slalom course. Doubt many people who slalom ski can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted October 23, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2012 I think it was intentionally set up by more than one individual to create scandal and make press. Didn't work, but what the heck it was worth a try! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted October 23, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2012 @OB He was going down to florida and skiing with Drew Ross, Rini, and Schnitz. Obviously, he was fooling em some way. Rini was talking about how he ran 41 at 34 with a 6 inch short rope and Schnitz did everything but call him God. At least Ross wasn't fooled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller 6balls Posted October 23, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2012 keep in mind as well that those buoys are moved in according to the pics at a couple of feet per side. That pass is not the same as running a rope 2 ft longer given the difference in angles that would now be necessary...it's easier yet. I believe this would take skiers on this site who run 38 w/some regularity to running 39 w/some regularity, perhaps having a shot at running 41 on occasion if on such a course. Serious cheater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller tfriess Posted October 23, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2012 I have skied at his site a few times as it is close to my house, I increased my PB from 6@15off to 5.25@35off all in one day. I'm still wondering if the course was regulation, but my guess is it was... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller thager Posted October 23, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2012 On the other side of a conspiracy theory maybe he took one for the team in the interest of trying to help a little known sport get some TV/press time aka pro wrestling (bad guy) if you will. I am joe no-skier yet I got some odd phone calls the day before this all went down and then during the event from skiing persons of interest that I never would normally never hear from. Haven't heard from these persons since the scandal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted October 23, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2012 I do not believe it was a publicity stunt. No one would willingly go from being published in magazines, and holding records at the state level - starting to compete nationally, to a ban from the sport and complete removal of their records. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted October 23, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2012 @OB - I think he could ski pretty well, he wasn't a bad skier really, just that being able to put down 39 and something at 41 in training versus at a tournament are different. I suspect in an effort to ensure the win he competed on a rigged course, not that he needed to, but that it ensured the win. Real question is, are there really any more scandals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddF Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 It is pretty hard to believe that someone could knowingly do that, and at the Malibu open. I wonder if he ever had Lance Armstrong ski at his site. I guess he should think about running for office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller tfriess Posted October 23, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2012 I think it would be pretty awkward having him as your dentist if you were a skier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller A_B Posted October 23, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2012 Yeah, when he says you need a filling or crown, you have to wonder is he REALLY telling the truth, or paying for his elaborate course work. I have heard someone say that he would only use his rope etc. at other sites. My Big Dog friend called it very early on. He said he didn't believe it until he saw it on a RC course/tournament. Guys like him, Buddy Shear, etc., were all occassionally getting though 39 and he said no way was this guy the real deal.. he was right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotb35 Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 I havent heard if this scandal until now. Maybe the guy was a little bored and though "hey i know how to do this and that, i wonder if i could..." big deal. The guy got caught. sounds like heas been outcasted by everyone. Thats too bad. Just dont let him set up a course and check hia rope before he gets into the water. Like you said there was no real money involved. Remeber that roahld dahl book Danny the champion of the world. They didnt need to poach 200 pheasants. Theres no way they could carry them. They did it just to see if they could do it. Forgive the guy and double check things. You know what? i did a study in college "are people in sports more likely to follow the rules and abide by the law?" the reasoning was yes since there were participating in activities with rules all the time. My results were inconclusive but after looking at a few surveys i had a hunch that people growing up playing sports broke the laws and rules if they were sure they wouldnt get caught and knew how. (running a red light when no one was around was the prime example.)Since they were used to being in sports with rules they were more likely to see the lines and when they could be crossed. Whos that guys who said slalom skiers tended to be more successful in life? i just mean to defend this doctor jim as him exercising his mechanical knowledge and exploiting a lack of regulation and his actions are on par with what everyone else has done at some point in their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller auskier Posted October 23, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2012 dr jim was IMO by far the biggest scandal. there was this back in 04? http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2562842026447947136 possibly the hottest 51k passes ever.. i cant find the other 200+ (202?) jump. someone will know the story much better than I. Edit: found it on CRB http://www.creakyrowboat.com/2007_09_01_archive.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted October 23, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2012 What is the story @auskier ? Fast boat times? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted October 23, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2012 @auskier I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say Beebe was driving that. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller usaski1 Posted October 23, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2012 Prob so... whats the real word on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Killer Posted October 23, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2012 Steve Cockeram (sp?) was said to have a special cheater handle he got away with using at least a few times. MB talked about it on his old webcast.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Drago Posted October 23, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2012 Doesn't have to be money involved: many amature endurance athletes use EPO and lots of people use Hgh. Michaels was the talk of the waterski nation. HO made posters with him. Technical articles were written by him. His big mistake was calling pro skiers, Lazy rich kids. Then he b®ought the Malibu open to his lake: some pros were out to get him, and the jump course added to his lake created a reference point which made his moved course very obvious. He was maybe a 35 off skier legit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller bhs Posted October 23, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 23, 2012 I can't remember where, might have been thewaterskiforum.com , but there were a couple of guys calling Dr J out for not being far enough up on the boat @39 and 41. They would call bull and a whole host of people called it sour grapes, jealousy. I was excited to hear the results from that weekend at his place. I thought it was cool that someone, new to the sport could do so well, spark interest.after it was done we had something else to talk about. My brother, who is not into skiing read about it on the ESPN website and called me. Crazy stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller tfriess Posted October 24, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 24, 2012 @killer cheater handle? Im having a hard time picturing what this might be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted October 24, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 24, 2012 A well known open men/big dawg skier got caught back in the 2000s with a handle he could extend the bridle on once he got in the water. Which is why you now have to measure afterwards at a record tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Texas6 Posted October 24, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 24, 2012 Not trying to add to the scandal, but if I remember the Waterski mag article also mentioned there was strong evidence of him using Roids in addition to his cunning course management skills. I know, I know, what do Roids do for our sport? That's besides the point, and still adds to the scandal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countymountie Posted October 24, 2012 Share Posted October 24, 2012 I was using Stargazer with a hand timer in my previous boat and couldn't figure out why the boat seemed to be running through the course "hot". Last year I got a boat with ZO, put in the waypoints and lo and behold, discovered that the course was almost 30 feet too long! I guess that explains why I was skiing so well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller auskier Posted October 24, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 24, 2012 @ShaneH you got it. My understanding was that the boat was calling through ok times with dodd and asher going massive for 51k! One of the tech guys (dave clarke?) superimposed the boat going by in the jump camera footage to other jumpers in the same event. The boat was WAAAAY faster. I did have the clips of it somewhere.. I think this is one reason why PP required the second display for boat judge. Anyone remember what year that rule came in? Also contributed to the extra segment being added for jump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ForrestGump Posted October 24, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 24, 2012 @auskier Mueller tells me every time he jumped behind Beebe he was scared sh$tless. Even at 35.2 mph he said he would almost pull him over the nose of the skis in the ramp approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jstaab3 Posted October 24, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 24, 2012 Who's Beebe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ToddL Posted October 24, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 24, 2012 David Beebe was a competitive skier and rated driver in the SCR area. He preferred driving for Jump at Collegiate events and tried to ensure that he was behind the wheel when the top seeds were skiing. Ultimately his driving techniques fell into question to the point of his ratings being removed and a suspension from being at sanctioned events was placed upon him. I think his technique was to exceed the speed threshold in the first segment and them abruptly slow down in the second segment resulting in a full segment time which was within tolerance. If the skiers where accustomed to this method, they tended to get a little extra speed into the jump and resulted in potentially enhanced distances. The current rules and speed controls eliminate this technique from being feasible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Razorskier1 Posted October 24, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 24, 2012 Perhaps more interestingly, didn't Dr. Jim's suspension end this year? Any word that he is planning to compete again, or has he decided to never show his face at a tournament? Thought I'd read somewhere that he was planning to compete again, perhaps in 2013? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller usaski1 Posted October 24, 2012 Baller Share Posted October 24, 2012 I had a long discussion with Beebe last night, where he claimed that this was all on the boat judge calling in numbers for times that were accurate that actually weren't. Beebe was reprimanded by AWSA. (read as banned) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Member Than_Bogan Posted October 24, 2012 Gold Member Share Posted October 24, 2012 Entry from Dr. Jim arrives. Wow, I just filled up. That's really too bad... Btw, I think even Razor may be under-estimating how big a deal it is to move the buoys in by several feet. The reason -38 is so much harder than -35 is that you're getting into the limits of the geometry. Out at a longer length, that 75 cm change would make little difference. It's not like Dr. Jim's rope was rescaled in some way, instead he has all those short loops in a region where short changes don't change things as much. Another way of thinking of it is that pulling the buoys in makes -35 somewhat easier, but makes -41 MUCH easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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