If the Ballers were to design a boat

[MattP]

@6balls I like your thinking. The 197 has a little brother the 190. Only problem I see is the resale value would not be there if it was a closed bow.

[Horton]

@scotchipman what the hell are you talking about!

http://media.tumblr.com/fe497dd337d9af8479bb6398b9565d16/tumblr_inline_mg6n5ltl6X1rxe4lt.gif

[Johnbrad]

I don't mind to run my Aluminum Boat whether its open or closed bow.

[thager]

Gotta love the "Pandamoanium"!!!

[DW]

@6balls: You point hits on a key for why many "older" vehicles end up outliving the orginal end date as the tooling is paid off so they become very cheap to keep building even if the replacement is up and running.

 

One aspect on cost would also be mold storage and maintenance, a key item in the costing aspect of the boat industry. There has been some interesting discussion on actual boat costs / selling price within the manufacturer, this particular one compared the cost escalation of boats compared to, in this case, a Suburban. The $20k boat of a couple of decades ago now costs double or triple that, where the Suburban that now has significantly more content, has not risen at the same rate.

[6balls]

@DW what is interesting to me is there have been attempts by some players to come in with a price point boat and undercut the big 3, or the big 3's own attempts at a price point boat. Each time, though, the price point boat was a boat that cut corners. Skied well, but cut corners on materials/workmanship/horsepower etc.

Putting a 196 out there would still be a state of the art ski machine that didn't cut corners on quality or skiability. Without drinking any cool aid, I wonder the possibilities of selling a high quality 196 optioned only one way to cut costs, alongside the higher priced and customizable open bow 200.

[gregy]

When I suggested a less expensive price point boat to a manufacturer rep a few years ago. The answer was time and mold space are limited so we want to build boats that make the most money. If it takes the same time to build a 25k boat vs a 60k. There going to the more expensive boat if they can sell it.

[6balls]

I can buy that...every industry is different. The product on which lower margins are earned the volume must make up for it...and this is a relatively small volume business.

[Dacon62]

Further to @gregy's point...I would imagine that manufacturers base their margins on a percentage basis...would rather make 10% on a 60k boat than a 25k boat. That math is easy to do.

[Dacon62]

@wish writes...

"Wakes of a 196

Tracking of a Gekko GTR

Interior room of an Infinity

Easy step over of an Infinity

Platform of a Carbon Pro

Front bow section of a Bu Sportster with hard tonneau cover

Seat hights of a 196

Usable side gunnel trunks similar to 200.

Current Bu windshield

Ipad dash display (removable). Apps for cruise control, and engine stats. done wireless

Rotating pylon like MC

Ultra-Ever Dry on all surfaces above the waterline".

 

Plus a few items I would like to see,

 

- 4 under floor fuel tanks/cells positioned 1 in each rear corner, 1 under the driver and 1 under the passenger with a centeralized fuel shuttle valve/pick up that would allow fuel pick up no matter where it was located AND assuming you would not fill tanks to capacity allow you to divert the weight where you need it for optimal tracking and balance. You have to lug around the weight anyways you may as well have it working for you.

Having the fuel under the floor would allow not only for side gunnel ski lockers like the 200 but additionally allow for a deep split lid transom locker like the TXi. Those areas should fit everyones skis, vests, gloves, etc. and leave the floor uncluttered.

- Aluminum 6.2 LS3 for now and in about a year or so the new all new Aluminum 6.2 LT1 with VVT and cylinder cut out that is coming out in the new C7 Vette.

- Switchable 'silent choice' exhaust from the usual location to through bottom of hull to reduce noise.

- Reduced shaft angle for greater propeller effeciency. So a mid mount V-drive configuration like the Infinety or mid mount with CV joint to achieve similar reduced angle.

[Skoot1123]

Just a guess at who asked @horton about this - someone from Nautique Boats.

[bogboy]

The r&d on the electric natique is being done on the 196 platform. So natique must be keeping the tooling close at hand.

[BraceMaker]

When did you last see anything new on an electric 196?

 

[Horton]

@Skoot1123 not even in the right zip code...

[DW]

@Dacon62: great idea on tanks, huge challenge as floatation requirements would really make that design difficult / impossible to implement. If you really wanted serious torque, an LS-7 would be awesome. . . there even exists a cam that produces more torque than the standard cam. Changing the shaft angle will have an impact on thrust attitude, so there would be more changes to couple with that to keep a flat wake.

[disland]

as a minimum put the damn fuel filler hole on both sides like the late model 196. The guy who moved it to the middle of the boat on the 200 should be shot. What a mess

[swc5150]

Agreed! The 200 fuel port sucks!

 

FWIW...I think I've mentioned this before, but CC told me last year that they'd build new 196's, if the order was large enough, 20+ units as I recall. Price, however, was not discussed, and I would assume this would not come cheap.

 

Some of my ideas:

 

* SN 196 with...

* Starboard side 200-like saddle bag extending all the way to the stern with slots to stack skis

* No rear trunk, with ZX1 style walk through

* iPad dash pod (great idea someone!)

* Pylon camera uploading video directly to iPad

* Sea Deck or snap in carpet

* Heated steering wheel (we have one in our new car, and it's awesome. Who would've thought?)

* Heated throttle knob

[swc5150]

Yup, heated shift knob. I would've laughed to until having one in my car (6 speed man fwiw). It was below zero here this morning, and both hands were toasty warm. I would love a warm throttle ball for those cold mornings and evenings. In floor heat - now you're talking!

[E_T]

A must have is a mini keggerator! Ask @Horton he will agree!

[Horton]

Hell yes

[rodltg2]

Kegs don't work we'll on a ski boat. They get very shakin up and foam alot.

[swc5150]

We strapped a few half barrels to the platform back in the day, just for putting around. I bet the law would love that nowadays.

[E_T]

@rodltg2 you drink to slow

[gregy]

Back to the subject. I was looking on the internet and if people are getting near what there asking for the 196s I think there would probably be a market for new 196 boats if it could be price pointed at around 40k. Just a basic tow boat. What do the rest of you think?

 

The only draw back I could see for nautique is that it would cut into the 200 numbers.

[tfriess]

Every boat that comes out of the factory should be stocked with Kilo Kai

[E_T]

@gregy that was on subject!

[MattP]

@tfriess how old are you?

[Horton]

shut up @mattp

@tfriess is a genius

[Dacon62]

Wouldn't the cost to build a basic 196 or basic 200 be close to the same?

They would both require about the same amount of raw materials if comperably equipped.

Who would really buy a 196 if the 200 wakes are better and the price is the same?

[MattP]

Price may be close, but the fuel consumption is not.

[thager]

Personally, I don't think there's a measurable difference in the wakes. The 200 feels like it has a little softer ZO pull, probably due more to a greater weight/ HP ratio. I would still buy the 196. It's more of a sports car than a Taxi.

[The_MS]

I would go 196

[gregy]

@ms +1 on 196.

[6balls]

The 196 could be cheaper if all produced the same for the most useful options...the right motor and speed control, tune-able rudder. All else dealer installed at buyer discretion so production costs remain low and no R/D costs to recover on proven design.

 

For 2 products in same segment , for example, right now pretend CC sells 200 200's (i'm making that up). Maybe they then sell 100 196's and b/c it's offered 25 sales of 200's are cannibalized. They have now sold 275 units to the tourney market rather than 200 and taken a larger market share. The question is whether 175 200's and 100 196's are more profitable than 200 200's.

 

Obviously have to play with the real numbers, contribution margins, HR, plant efficiencies etc.

[Dacon62]

@MattP - The price you pay for a flatter, frothier, softer wake?

 

The Hydro-Brake (aka Hydrogate), as I like to call it, is ONE of the likely culprits increasing fuel consumption on Nautiques equipped with them. This is not a dis to Nautique just an observation that when you place a flat plate of steel into the water it does create a fair bit of drag.

[MattP]

@Dacon62 yes there is a difference but not enough to matter. I ski the same behind both. I do ski @36 for what it's worth

[gregy]

Malibu still offers the Response LX. Nautique could do the same.

[MattP]

@Dacon62 yes there is a difference but not enough to matter. I ski the same behind both. I do ski @36 for what it's worth.

[Dacon62]

Something is just not sitting right about this...If you buy a brand new old boat (196/Response, etc) you would definitely take it in the shorts when it's trade in time because of the very limited amount of buyers out there. Most buyers want the latest tech or hull design. Dollar wise you are probably better off finding an older 196/Response with low hours.

Who really, when it's time to take out the cheque book, is going to sign up to pay just about as much for a 196 or Response as a 200 or TXi and know they just bought the previous generations technology and design? Economics and Pride my friends, it's where the rubber meets the road!

[The_MS]

The great thing about the 196 is that it is the latest tech and hull.

[Ed_Obermeier]

Malibu still sells some RLX's every year, it's a custom order though not a stock item. So there are definitely folks out there willing to spend the money on a newly built, proven hull design. BTW they do put the latest engines and electronics etc in them, only "older tech" if you will is the hull. Well proven hull design, latest tech included. Not everyone who buys a new boat lists resale as their first criteria when considering the purchase. If you want what you want and you got the bucks...

[Wish]

I've been told by a long standing ski coach that has exclusively used SN for more then a decade that the 1997 196 is the best wake SN ever produced. I have not skied behind anything better and neither has my slower speed long line daughter. Not old tech as far as hull goes.

[tfriess]

@horton thank you.

@mattp 16. Just a suggestion, never said I would drink it.

[MattP]

@tfriess I know just giving you a hard time

[vtjc]

How about using the same or similar lower hull to make two different boats? I envision one model having low freeboard(MC 190 & BU Sportster)closed bow for private and small lakes. A second open bow with higher freeboard. I guess I envision something like Response and Response TXI/LXI, but where the hulls are similar to save R&D and productions costs. Perhaps the weight difference would be too great to use the same hull bottom. I am generally against open bows for safety reasons(blocking/distracting driver, falling over the front, swamping…), but I did see advantages of the high freeboard my 99 MC SportStar CB(95-97 Prostar Hull) had for keeping kids and dogs aboard.

It would be great to get lighter more fuel efficient power plants, but the GM blocks are just a great value and their power levels are needed for the heavy hulls, with lots of drag being produced.

 

[Greg Banish]

How many here would honestly be interested if someone came out with a boosted 4 cylinder engine that made 280-300hp, but weighed 300# less? If you look at what we have done in the automotive industry, this is getting pretty common. Fuel consumption would be lower than your typical 5.7L and less weight should make pretty much any hull's wake smaller.

[BraceMaker]

@eficalibrator - personally it would be a price point thing if performance and fuel costs and upkeep were similar then that weight isnt killing me for less money.

 

I would rather carry less fuel, ditch gear and pull carpet.

 

Now a boosted diesel with super fuel sippage yes please.

 

Frankly for most skiers I think the HP figures of yesteryear were adequate.

[Broussard]

Did I mention TEAK and CLOSED BOW?

[Ed_Obermeier]

A 4-cylinder gas engine, regardless of HP output, isn't going to have the low end grunt to satsify most slalom diehards. Nice idea in theory, in practice likely not to be very well accepted.

[BraceMaker]

@skibrain - have you been around a diesel lately?

 

Heck diesels from the late '90's didn't have the soot fume spraying qualities like industrial engines.

 

Most modern diesels burn darned clean. Also, with something like the "quiet on the set" Fresh air exhaust injecting the fumes underwater it is not a problem.

 

I personally smell gas fumes way easier than diesel fumes from modern cars. Also mastercraft already brought a VW marine diesel to the market several years back. It got good reviews as I recall, but entry price was something like 20+k ontop of the base boat.