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What the heck is the deal with -28?


jhughes
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@Bruce_Butterfield, a Hall of Famer putting on a clinic at our lake said that 28 off is a great line to run at really slow speeds. As you alluded to about being balanced and not sinking, he said that you need to be on edge through both wakes to run 28 off at any speed, and the slower speed gives you time to adjust your body position. I have used this with many skiers with great success, including myself, and I am no lightweight!
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Heres my 2cents. I think you need to pull out for gate earlier...you look too fast at turn in. Hold your pull thru the wakes a little longer and then edge change. Riding flat ski into ball will result in slack at -28 which is the main difference in -28 and -22.
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What about the mental game here? Today's set was the closest encounter I've had with just plain wanting to walk away from the sport! So tough to stay encouraged when you're all thumbs out there, particularly after working SO hard all summer and continually hitting this wall.
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@jhughes I'm in nearly the same boat as you. I too seem to rush things at this speed and length. To me, your last attempt was the best. You had the least amount of rearing back on the ski after the turn in, you had good angle to one ball and your ski casted out pretty well. The problem I saw, is that you try to force the turn by cranking over / rotating with your upper body. Try to think of keeping your hips forward and your shoulders open - think "open, open, open" so that your ski can finish under you and get some angle out of the ball and you will be off to the races I think...
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Bruce hit some keys for sure. Also nothing wrong with mixing it up and trying something different, 22 sucks I'd run 15 and then 22 and drop the speed a 1/2 mph at 28. I'm actually skiing all my harder passes 1/2 mph slower right now with 60 deg water. Feels like 34.2 a month ago when we were at 80+.

 

Very short Setup at that site is causing weird things at your gate and your gate is where you loose the pass. Very little pullout intensity is causing you to slow down too much, try bing more progrwessive in your pullout but DONT get sucked back in!!!!!! The big bow on the line shows you are getting sucked in. 1 key I got from current top 5 pro was feel the load in my left arm (lff) on my pullout and glide to maintain the line tension. You are losing line tension which translates to no speed and lost direction to 1 ball.

 

28 is where the pull zone shortens and the pendulum takes effect. Its different for sure and takes time to learn. Same turn as 15 and 22 but work harder from the white water to white water, Resist pulling before the ski comes under the rope aka delay the pull. At your gate you are turning into slack and hammering it; be progressive! That goes back to the above re: maintaining speed and line tension in your glide.

 

Ride the swing and have fun.

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OK, so in summary:

 

1. Longer, lighter pullout, starting earlier if possible

2. Slight outbound pressure in glide to keep rope tight and stay wide

3. Do nothing with arms in turn-in (presumably no slack to reel in)

4. Be as progressive as possible through gate, let boat pull me through

5. In theory this should fire me out the other side of the wake with an insta-edge change

6. Do not grab for handle to complete turn, keep hand on hip during turn

 

My guess is that steps 1-4 are what will make 5 and 6 automatic-ish. Believe me, I'm not consciously grabbing the handle too quickly in the turn or releasing too early or trying to have a flat transition. This is my body/brain doing the math with physics and saying if this turn is going to work, I had better grab that handle early because I'm out of speed and width and this is what I have to work with. If I can get the glide and turn-in tidied up I'm hoping that it makes the post-wake stuff "happen" more easily (?)

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@OB "That's what you have to fix, not just "not grabbing the handle early". that's what I'm saying precisely. That pullout, glide, and turn-in need to be the real focus. The problems at my turn and transition are due to a lack of speed and direction because my pullout and turn-in are wrong. Really going to try to focus on that phase of the course next time I'm out. Will report back.
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Don't forget that skiing is about progression and having fun. If you focus on progressing too much, you won't have fun and you likely won't progress either. I've been to 32 off a few times before actually getting too tired but there are still days where I barely even make it to 28 off. So just making it to 28 off is still fun for me. If I want to cheat, I'll ski open water but I have the mentality that I need to earn each pass and it makes it more fun for me.
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Joel don't worry about turning at the buoy. That last pass you were going to 2 ball, you made a big sweeping turn that pass. Your #2) on the list - Your best gates were when you had the handle low, next time out I'm going to think more about that myself.

 

At the very basic level I have the best results when I try to keep a stack position as much as possible through out the course. Try to get your hips forward coming into the turn, resist letting your inside shoulder drop which results in you hips going back and breaking at the waste.

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Hey @Joel, I'm not hearing your #1 about longer lighter pullout from anyone. I'm hearing get up higher on the boat. Get a visual on where the rope is relative to something on the boat. A step pad on the gunwale, lettering on the side or something. My 2 cents.
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A lot of good comments and recommendations. But having been stuck at 15 & 22 for a very long time the one thing that has helped me is to remember that really the only thing that needs to go around those buoy's is the ski.

At 15 & 22 off I was skiing my whole body around the ball, In doing this it is very hard to have a proper pre turn and almost impossible to end up stacked correctly with angle to the wake (not the next ball).

I just started figuring this out and clicking in the last month and I finally understand what a pro told me a while ago. " dude you are working way to hard for what your getting" I am truly using about 1/2 the energy at 28off that I used to at 34, 15off.

good luck

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@jhughes I don't think I agree with #4 on your list. You need intensity behind the boat even at the gates. You want to make sure that you hit maximum speed behind the boat so that you get that swing that @OB is talking about. I find if you try to be too progressive and let the boat pull you through the gates that you wind up having to pull after the second wakes which is a recipe for disaster at -28.

 

You want to be progressive on the turn in but when you finish the turn in and set your angle you need to get good body position and work hard behind the boat.

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Its you! Stop trying to convince yourself you're doing it right. Your handle is over your head and you're pulling in, pass over. Regina Lets her arms out as the ski comes around and she skis back to the handle with straight arms into leverage nice and progressive. Look at how tight the line is!!! She's back a bit in her glide but You can actually see her front foot push the ski down to initiate its inside edge. Rossi and jmac both glide a bit like that.
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Joel, Regina does raise her handle some on the turn-in. There's a lot of good skiers how do to help establish a rhythm. Your raising your a lot and at the same time pulling it in and kinda falling back.

 

I'd say she is balance on the ski in the turn-in it then starts shifting weight forward. You can see were the water breaks around the toe of the front boot as she turns in. The watch her hips, shes moving her COM forward, hips and upper body are open, hips pushed forward through the turn. It's exactly what you always hear - move your mass in the direction you want to go. In the past I've weighted the front foot and then moved my hips which just is not working on the current ski that I'm on.

 

The pull out does not have to be intense and I don't think hers is, (more on this later). But what was way more intense is Regina's cut into the gate. She really get up on the boat at the gates, more so than I typically do (I can't wait to work on this next time out). I looked at bunch of pro's videos last night at 28 an 32 and being way up on the boat at pull is typical. @AB what do you reference as for as how far up on the boat to get?

 

On the pull out longer easy pull out by dropping your hips in the direct you want to go and I don't think it needs to be exaggerated. Regina does this but I always refer back to the video below.

 

 

Another good with video.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in5Se66mLfQ

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I paid more attention to my 32 off gate last night and I start my pullout when the boat is about a boat or 3/4 of a boat away from pre gate. I am a couple feet outside the 246 buoy line or even with it, not always in same exact spot, and my sight picture at turn in is almost identical to what @OB posted out here. I keep my right hip up and ski is on left edge. I head to the gates quite a bit past the LH gate and one ball line up. I leverage hard into first wake and am putting my ski outside the handle path in the whitewater after RH gate ball. Wide and early into one ball.

 

At 35, I was even to a few feet inside the 246 line and may be turning in a tad later and pulling out a tad later at pregate. I think I drift inward a little more at 35 but still load hard into first wake. I had a butter one ball last night paying more attention to it. Probably should do that more often!

 

I am RFF, so like to get wide and pick my line, even with a little drift into the gate, feeling I can hookup as needed.

 

I did try another flatter gate at 35 last night, and I just can't do that method. I am late and narrow and cannot cast out with this approach. Maybe it is my COM. Just too much COM!

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@jhughes Yes, she does raise the handle a little to initiate the turn in. That allows her to bring her hip forward. I skied with a hall of fame skier this summer, and his advice to every skier that day was to reach higher at the ball. I think the same thing applies to the gate turn in. The problem is what you do with the handle after that. Watch were Regina tucks the handle when she brings it in.

 

On most of those passes your timing at one ball is not that bad, in fact, I think it's pretty good. Like you said it's something you need to mentally overcome. You know 28 is a difficult pass, so, like @lb said you are trying to hard at the ball. Focus that effort behind the boat and stay calm at the ball. Instead of trying to rotate your shoulders and upper body to initiate the turn, try initiating the turn from the ankles up, and slide your inside hip around the ball. He also made a good point about the preturn. You're not finishing the turn in good position because you're not in a good position in your preturn. I can almost always trust that I'll hook-up to the handle after the ball in a good position if I'm able to get myself in proper position in the preturn. Then, when you get to the ball just drop your hip, the ski turns itself and comes under the rope and you won't have to reach for it.

 

Look a Regina in her preturn, especially her onside. In the preturn and at the ball, her body position is like an airfoil. She's already put herself in a position to accelerate before she's at the ball.

 

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@AB I don't tend to look down the buoy line I base it on the angle of the rope on the boat. My issue with using the buoy line for width is it changes as you shorten the rope the angle of the rope on the boat doesn't change that much.

 

I am a LFF skier and I start my pullout just before the nose of the boat hits the right hand 55. I am standing in the white water just outside the curl. I have to admit my pullout is a bit of a feel thing based on the angle of the rope but I have been told that I get and maintain good width.

 

At 35 off I go a little bit later at the recommendation of Jack Travers this summer and it seems to help me. I also started loading the earlier going to the gates trying to hit maximum speed behind the boat. When I tried to start easier I was still accelerating after the second wake even though I wasn't pulling and it tended to make me fast into 1 ball at -35. At -28 it isn't an issue for me but if you are just working on -28 you want to focus on making sure you hit max speed behind the boat.

 

I agree with @AB I don't like the flatter gate. Most of the good skiers I see are high up on the boat on the gates. If flatter was really better I think they would all be doing it.

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This is a big part of why I shut my site down. 2 days on BOS and I already have ~60 amazing responses. This is great!

 

Hoping to get out tomorrow and Saturday. Will take video.

 

Watching Regina's pass over and over, then going back and looking at mine shows a comical difference in what we are doing in the pull-out. I have this dainty little pull-out and her pull-out is practically a full-lean position, fully leveraged out into the glide. Super wide and up on the boat. That is ALL I'm going to focus on the next time out. I think once I "feel" the whole up-on-the-boat thing, it'll start to click. Can't wait.

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@jhughes the first time you get wide you are going to struggle at 1 ball. Because you don't have enough width right now you are pulling long into 1 ball and you can get away with it at 15 and 22 off. The first few times you get wide you are going to pull to the same point you have been and you are going to flying at 1 ball. Don't give up try to adjust your work zone so it is between the white water and you will be fine. It is an adjustment you are going to need to make to run the harder passes.
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on the turn in for the gate chet raley once told my brother to 'put the handle where your going to want it to be at full extension at the apex of the turn' and i think this is what regina is doing when you think shes reaching up to initiate the turn. it looks to me like she initiates the turn with her hips and is just putting the handle where she wants it to be like chet raley said.
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That is some really really good advice from @Chef23 there. Once you start right, you're old instincts will still be there and you'll be wider than necessary and too fast. This is a good sign!! That means you're doing it right up to the gate, and then your next step will be to work on the outbound portion.

 

Fwiw, I just experienced this for the first time ever @ -39: Getting to one too wide and too fast. This is a very exciting development, because now it may be possible for me to do what I'm supposed to do on the outbound arc and still get around the buoy! Believe me I'm a LOT further from running -39 than you are from running -28. (In fact, I got 100 bucks says you run -32 before I run -39.) But having experienced this basic pattern at every new rope length, I know I've just made one important step of many.

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Chef, I normally don't look at the buoy line either. I look at the boat and rope angle like you do. I paid more attention to where I was at so I could explain a little further on here. Maybe I need to pay attention a little more, as I had some pretty good starts last night, except for the one earlier start that I was experimenting with. I don't know how I could ever get a good start like that.
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I think you had a bad session the first time out after getting so many responses because you had too many things running through your head and then had less than 20 seconds to implement them.

 

I think you may want to focus on one thing at a time.

 

For example working on your gates, or focusing on getting stacked etc.

 

 

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Skied this morning. First order of business was getting really wide on the pullout. First couple attempts had me with slack in the pullout, again, until I realized by trip out to the left of the boat had to be a gradual, smooth motion initiated by the hips. I thought of that video with T-gas where it shows him stacked in the white water, and the outside hip moving outbound being the only thing initiating the pullout. That was key. It's not just when or how hard but how you change direction, even on the pullout, that is critical at least for me.

 

When I did this correctly I was very high on the boat- I looked over at the boat to verify the rope was practically clear of the dog house- I had no slack and I was able to turn in somewhat smoothly. The turn in is the next big frontier here as I found myself still turning on the back of the ski, butt-back a bit which causes instant built-up tension and complete failure through the gates. Gotta initiate that turn-in more smoothly and with the front of the ski.

 

So, we're halfway there. Pullout was great, turn in was not. On one of my better passes I missed 2-ball and ran 3-6. On that trip around 3,4,5,6 I felt things that I have never felt before in the course, it was really neat. It is a whole new ball game, much more so that 58K is at 15/22 (that was a previous discussion IIRC). The shorter rope dynamics are so different but truly force you to be better. I love that.

 

Skiing again tomorrow. Will video.

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@jhughes Congrats, good skiing. Next time out I'm going to work on getting up on the boat more. When I'm skiing right I can tell by the sound of my ski cutting through the water going out to the buoy. Anyone else notice that. I don't hear it when I'm narrow and hook turning.

 

The turn-in is another one of those things your body wants to resist. The idea is to move your COM in the direction you want to go, like falling forward as you take off running. Your mind is saying to fall back and resist the pull.

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@jhughs it sounds like you are making progress. On the turn in... it feels strange initiating without falling back and using tension from the rope. If you think about being tall and straightening your back leg it will put you up front. Then you can drop in with the hip. Just a thought but you could probably develop this initiation move without the rope.

 

I remember you writing about a clinic with @sethski where he had you do this with great success. He did it with me as well and I've never forgotten the sensation. Find your notes!

 

@gregy is right on the money about the mind saying "fall back and resist the pull."

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A long time ago, when I was still going 36mph, struggling at 32 off, we had Kris Lapoint come in for a day and he told me I had some technique flaws that I needed to fix, and he said running at speed at longer line lengths lets me get away with them. He recommended running 28 off at 28 mph. We thought he was crazy. I weighed about 185 at the time and my friend who was about the same level weighed 215 being 6'3". Kris's theory was that at 28 off you had to do things correctly to run it, and at slow speeds, you need to create and maintain your own speed. Kris was right (go figure), I had plenty of time to work on technique and body position and I worked my way back up to seed trying to maintain the same form. Made me a much better skier. We even took it a step further, and had mini 28 mph tourneys between us to see how far up the rope we could get. There are guys that are dead set against slowing the boat down, and that is fine, I WAS one of them. I can relate to wanting to be used to full speed, but I reckoned that I had to make a sacrifice if I was going to move ahead.
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Turn in... Somewhere I saw someone say for LFF skiers, think about your front big toe as the initiation of the turn towards the gates. Also, I have found that moving the handle low and in front of me just before turning in helps me achieve a better stack as the load develops.
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@OB - you said something in a post on the prior page... I'll paraphrase: Grabbing the handle before the turn is complete is due to insufficient ski speed throughout the turn.

 

I've been thinking about this and it makes sense, but I was wondering if others agree. I heard this said - speed is a slalom skier's friend. When you are fast through the turn, everything else is easy. There is good fast (ski speed) and bad fast ("feeling" fast or loss of angle). "Feeling" fast usually isn't about speed but about path. A narrow, flat, late, straight-to-the-buoy path will feel fast. A skier with speed out of the lean will be earlier, wider and have space before the buoy - resulting in the turn seeming to be longer, with more time, and slower. All the while the ski is actually travelling at a faster rate of speed through the turn.

 

A narrow, flat, late, straight-to-the-buoy path also makes the skier think he or she has to take action to force the turn or to force the finish of the turn. Action during the turn usually means cutting off the natural arc that the ski wants to take. That abrupt disruption of the arc can often cause the ski to stall or quickly lose speed - an OTF would be the most extreme example of the ski abruptly losing speed.

 

Also, it makes sense that the slower the ski speed at the end of the turn, the more abrupt the acceleration out of the turn must be - "the hit." So, the more speed that the ski carries through the finish of the turn, the more fluid the skier will feel during the transition from turn to lean.

 

All of the above means that a skier with ski speed off the 2nd wake will maintain good speed throughout the turn and won't feel any need to grab for the handle before the turn is coming to completion.

 

http://www.waterskimag.com/files/2012/07/handle-position.jpg

What do y'all think?

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The guys I ski with are on board with this Todd. Whenever a pass feels fast it is more often than not because of pulling in too late at the ball. Very hard to judge speed when you are accelerating behind the boat but a couple mph at the ball is very noticeable. When I think I am fast, I know I have to work harder behind the boat.
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Also, the more speed the skier can generate from white water to center line, the earlier he or she will be off the second wake, and therefore the sooner the ski can/will move cross course and outbound (edge change) on the way out to the buoy (space before the buoy, good fast). (Think Seth's iPad sketch lesson video...

)

 

Conversely, the less speed the skier can generate from white water to center line, the longer the skier must stay in the lean and will begin to generate down-course momentum and trajectory (flat, straight-at-the-buoy, "feeling" fast, bad fast).

 

Right?

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@AB I really think there is something to this. For years I've started with slow 15 off openers, run up to max speed then cut, then cut again if I can. Sure I've had less than perfect technique but these passes have felt good and fun and I've felt like I was progressing every year.

 

This fall, in focusing purely on 28 I've realized that it is so different than the previous lengths that it makes the previous two lengths feel irrelevant. I know that's not going to be a popular comment with some of you but that's what I'm feeling out there. Irrelevant because I have no context on those lengths of what I'm doing wrong when I hit 28. As such, I'm reinforcing bad habits over and over and over, for well over 50 sets this year (!). I've gotten better than ever this year but it's been a slow climb.

 

Went out there again today and banged away at it, yellow loop only. Had a horrible head/tail wind and blinding sun going one way down the course so the training conditions were "not ideal" to say the least, particularly when working on the gate/glide/turn-in. Managed a skidding fall around 3-ball @34 as the day's best. Felt a little something new/different every single pass and that's what it's all about. Pulled the course today so other than a little public course skiing here and there this is pretty much it for '13!

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@jhughes I'm a little late to this thread. I am among those working hard at -28 and have just this summer gotten to the point where I can run it more than once in a 6-pass set. Please allow me to try to answer your questions based on my recent experience.

 

My answer to your first question is that I run -28 when I can overcome these three barriers: (1) Getting wide and way up on the boat at the gates; (2) Holding the handle in coming off the second wake; and (3) Countering by very deliberately tucking my outside elbow behind my upper body during my reach as I approach the buoy. When I remember these three things for the whole pass, I round five and come up on six with all kinds of time to spare.

 

To answer your second question, I think you have to be solid at -22 before this stuff makes sense. Getting wide at the pullout and countering during the reach -- among many other details -- are keys for running a solid -22, but they become absolutely critical on the yellow loop. But for me, it was squeezing both elbows into my vest as I come out of the whitewash that really and truly made this pass attainable -- FINALLY!! The lights just came on. Forgetting this at -22 isn't the end of the world, but you'll be scrapping to run -28 if you let the boat take the handle from you by not keeping your elbows in close.

 

One other thing about -28 for me is that this is the first time I've gotten the sensation of being "cast out" or flung toward the buoy. For me it seems this is where "real" slalom begins. You need to be up on that ski, outside elbow (or arm) tucked in behind you, giving the rope to the boat only when you're damn good and ready as you approach the next ball. You'll hear people talk about "light on the line" -- this, for me, is what that means.

 

Lastly, my answer to your third question is based on the fact that I ski in local grassroots/Class F tournaments. I want to be able to get 2 or 3 balls at -32 if I run my -28 in one of these events, so in training I'd shorten up to -32 just to be better acquainted. By keeping these same three concepts in mind -- wide pullout, elbows in, very countered -- I was able to run 3 at -32 in last month's Class F after a relaxed, clean -28. In training, when you return to -28 after a couple of attempts at -32, everything is calmer and seems to make more sense.

 

This is what's allowed me to start dialing up the intensity and finally get into -28 and -32. Your mileage may vary!

 

 

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@jhughes, Joel, I am right there with you too! Finally this year have been getting through -22 consistently, and into -28. I have been able to get 4@28, but it was only after doing what most on this thread have recommended. Stacked position for me is key. NOT reaching for the handle early and letting the ski finish (including on my gate) IS KEY for me. Loading into the first white-water and staying stacked to get cast out has also been key for me.

 

The other thing, FWIW, I have been able to be in the boat and watch consistently a pro that skis at our lake. He begins with -28, but more importantly this principle was noticed: at -28, in his glide the rope is at the back-side of the of side step of out '07 196. For the rest of that pass, turns 1-6, the rope meets that SAME POINT on the pendulum swing. Now, -32 it is "mid-step" on the 196, and same thing: turns 1-6 the rope meets that same mid-step point. -35 and deeper, he is at the bow side of that step. Point is this that I have noticed: What ever point your rope achieves on that glide for your gate is the furthest up on the boat you will achieve in the pass. A narrow gate (or getting sucked in) will result in a narrow pass.

 

We will knock down this yellow loop Joel! Keep on pluggin' along.

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I've taped the little orange flags that you mark buried cable with onto the inside of the gunnel to give myself a reference on where I need to be in the gate glide. When I would touch it or go over it, I knew I was good. That gave me a reference point where I could then figure out my position and spacing relative to the boat and course.
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@AB so today I was skiing/feeling good after a few frustrating ski days and then taking a week off to let my sore forearm heal. I decided to slow the boat down to 30mph 28off. Well I ran it which is the first time I ran 28 off anything in over 20 years. Its didn't seem real pretty though. So my question to you AB is were you able to smooth that slow pass down enough to really learn something out of it. I was able to really focus on my gate/COM movement.

 

I made my mind up coming into this season that I was going to focus on form and just let the count fall were it may, so I don't care if I have to slow down to get my technique right.

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Ski it until you rock it. Slow down to 28mph if you have to. Build speed at 1 mph at a time if you have to. You should be crushing it if you are skiing well. Meaning, getting in there early and a little wide before the balls. Two handing 6 ball! Focus on basics, and for me that is good balance on ski when on edge behind boat, arms straight, chest up, elbows on sides of vest, casting ski outside the path going into the balls with chest up and off arm shoulder back and skiing outside hip around to the handle. It will feel pretty darn good and solid after a few sets. Start at 28/28 next time out and bump to 30 then 32 as a complete set. See how that works for you.
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Was able to get out this morning with some good public water. Squeaking out the season up here, for sure.

 

Tried -28 at 30mph for kicks, TOTALLY doable, got it the first try. Now, I muscled through it, for sure, but it was pretty much impossible to miss.

 

Dialed it up to 32mph and I got through that too. Finally. For sure, the 30mph pass helped me feel the different dynamics required. Again, all braun and no brains but I got through it. I'd say 32mph -28 is 5x harder than 30. 30 seems too easy, 32 seems too hard.

 

But, the key is that there is something to the low-speed 28 thing. For sure. It's an exercise that can't be ignored.

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