What the heck is the deal with -28?

[gregy]

@jhughes I'm planning on doing a lot of this over the winter. AB suggest to me to start at 28/28off and progress up on speed as a set. Agree 30mph was much easier than 32 or 34 mph.

[MISkier]

For me, the low speed drills help me ski the pass "like I want to ski it". That is how I judge when I have made the necessary improvement. I shouldn't feel like I am chasing it. I should be early, wide, and smooth. The line should be always tight - no slack hits and skiing back to the handle instead of reaching for it. If I have to do some sort of adjustment, crank a turn, or other catch-up maneuver during the pass, then there is still some form or timing issue to fix. I am just getting into this training mode this fall, so I am continually identifying things to fix. Completing the pass is not enough. Completing the pass "like I want to ski it" repeatedly is the goal.

[TWB]

@jhughes I don't think it's been mentioned in this thread. If it has, I apologize. Masterline makes a training rope with intermediate loops. I've been using one for two seasons now. Cutting the rope to my harder passes is a mental issue for me, but when I use the intermediate loop, I tell myself it's only 2 ft., or whatever the case may be. Using the intermediate loops this year has given me the sight picture of where the ball is at the shorter line lengths. I used to think I was running late at the shorter lengths (I probably am), and I would go into scramble mode.

 

I know now that I'm not as late as I think I am, it's just the visual ques are different. This has helped me to be patient and avoid going into scramble mode as the ball is going by. Watch video of good skiers and how they backside the ball at the longer lengths and look how far down course they are at the completion of the turn at shorter rope lengths.

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

@TWB I happened to catch Regina and Whitney live on a webcast and my mom was also watching. She has done some slalom skiing and is familiar with the concepts. She was totally stunned at how far downcourse these two were turning. Compared to what you'd see at -22 or -28, the optimal path through -38 and -39 looks sooo late. There's definitely a mental adjustment required to begin to believe this OK.

 

When I make that mental adjustment, I'll let you know...

[Jordan]

***There's definitely a mental adjustment required to begin to believe this OK.***

 

I think you have hit the nail on the head @Than_Bogan!!!!! Belief, that if you are patient enoough in finishing the turn, and belief that that the stack will get you there in time is huge.

 

I think "doubt", or the lack of "belief" is what makes us, reach, pull, hang our ass out behind, long pull...etc.

 

When watching the very best go at it, I have always been completely amazed at how late these guys get, and how patient they are.

 

 

 

[jhughes]

Sorry to re-surface this thread but I had 5 days of skiing at Bennett's to work on this just now. It was fabulous.

 

Problem definitely was primarily with me lifting the handle and elbows in the turn-in and thus not being stacked and tight through the gate, as identified by most of you. On set 1 this was caught and for the rest of the 11 or so sets I took my gates were more consistent than ever and my -22's were awesome. I was able to take down 22 every single set, at least once which is more consistent than they have ever been. It felt truly great.

 

I was also able to take down -28 at 32mph. It was ugly but it was better than falling at 1-ball which is where I was at previously. Again, the keys were elbows close and tight in the glide and through the turn-in combined with preserving angle out to 1 with tight elbows and being extra patient on the on-side turns to allow them to complete without slack.

 

Thank you for all the help, everybody. I do believe I'm on my way to -32 next season!

 

@TWB I'm definitely going to try some half-loops as well. I've seen just a little loop of Spectra attached to the standard loop for the halfies, seems like a cheap solution though it kinda dangles down while you're skiing and not using it.

[jhughes]

I just re-read this entire thread and created a Word doc with nuggets that seem to resonate. I will be printing this out and taking it with my on future sets. I'm still doing a lot of the same stuff that you see in these early videos, but the difference is I've now run -28 last year and I'm already deep into it this year. Marginal improvement here and there but the big stuff is still grossly evident. I've forgotten a lot of the good stuff in this thread and it's time to revisit it all.

[Deanoski]

It also looks like that ski does not turn very well 135 is awful and 246 is not turning very well either and that is your strong side.. check fin# do you have calipers? go to stock.

it blows me away how many skiers beat them self up and the ski is not even close to being set up stock.

 

Good luck

 

 

[jhughes]

@Deanoski This thread is from 2013 but yes, agreed. I just changed the settings (67" Quest) to 30", .760, 2.495, 6.30 which has considerably mellowed out the offside turn. Onside turn is still a school bus turn to this very day but I believe that is a result of zero angle, stack, direction, etc. into 2/4/6 out of 1/3/5.

[alex38]

Hi, 6.3?

[jhughes]

6.93, sorry @alex38

[alex38]

Just checking B)

[MISkier]

@jhughes, add some counter-rotation into your onside turn. @A_B gave me that advice and it improved my passes quite a bit. I know that I typically had not thought about any counter for the onside and suspect some others don't as well. You don't need much, but it helped me. I think we tend to skip it, because it is supposed to be our best turn with a more advantageous body position. Try it.

[C5Quest]

I’m so glad I found this thread. 28 has been my mental and physical wall this year. Just can’t figure it out and watching all ages of skiers knock this out like they’re sleeping has been frustrating to say the least. Can usually get 2-3 balls. Completed a couple ugly passes as 32 and 34 then back to square one. Basically destroyed my shoulder with slacks hits and bad form. Glad it’s almost end of season as I need a break. About 130 sets since May so my body is ready for something different like snow ski season. Wealth of good info here that I will take to heart and really work on. Thanks to everyone for passing on your knowledge to a junior but determined as heck new baller. At least I went from a -15/32mph to a -22/34mph skier this year with a best of 2 at -32/34mph. Want -28!

[jercrane]

@jhughes totally agree with @C5Quest

great thread ... this is my life right now.

 

@jhughes do you ahve the word doc by any chance? I was just thinking of doing the same in an evernote. Maybe you already did the work for me. :)

Maybe you can stick it in a dropbox folder and share link?

[jhughes]

@jercrane I don't have the doc, sorry. Having run 28 hundreds of times since this thread was started back in 2013 I'd scrap the whole doc and say simply that a nice high gate with a glide and turn-in on the front foot, and NO OTHER pointers or tips, will get you -28 even with many, many other errors in the course.

 

It won't get you 32 but it will get you -28.

 

I'm not a big believer in large quantities of the low-speed stuff nor any "in course" tips as they are distractions to what needs to be learned which is the glide/gate. Now I'm working on body position and handle control for -32 but I can run 28 with egregious errors, wind, and a stack that looks like Quasimodo. As long as the gate is good. Even decent. Folks doing the wrong stuff at lower speed or working on in-course stuff like "counter rotation" and visual stuff, etc. are going to have a long road to 28 with gate denial.

 

[jercrane]

ok makes sense I do struggle with information overload on this big time and have been searching for the "biggest boulder" for me to focus on. Not the silver bullet mind you just the most important thing to fix first. I know I do a million things wrong but one of them has to more detrimental than the rest. Knock that off first then work my way down the list.

 

I'll try focusing on high gate with nice line tension this weekend only and see how that goes.

 

thanks ... ps, happy to see you have revived fifteenoff.com ... hope it sticks :smile:

[Chef23]

I agree with @jhughes that a good gate is key for running 28, 32 and beyond. I agree that running slower speeds with bad fundamentals doesn't help you run max speeds. However I differ in that I believe that running slower speeds can allow you more time to develop the correct fundamentals. I believe being able to run a slower speed shorter line length will help you as you speed up. For example if you are struggling at 34/28 and get to the point where you can run 32/32 it will help you at 34/28. You can't run 32 off even at 32 mph with a sloppy gate (at least I can't). Sometimes practice mode and taking a mph or even a 1/2 mph off can help with a new line length. I know personally the first time I ran 32 off it was soft and helped me both fix fundamentals and have the confidence that I could run the pass.

 

As in most things there are many different ways to get where you are going to but the fundamentals of a good gate, being high on the boat, a good glide on the front foot and turning in with good speed is critical. There are different paths to cement these fundamentals don't be afraid to experiment.

[T_C]

The best advice I have gotten from @twhisper is that it doesn't matter what your hardest pass is or which loop you are working on the fundamentals are the same. The best way to learn a new pass is to run the previous pass over and over until it is automatic. If you haven't joined his trainingwithterrywinter you need to!

[ALPJr]

Trainwithterry x2.

[Buoyhead69]

This is my third year in the course and even last year I doubted that I would ever run -28 at 34.2mph. Especially a consistent and smooth -28. This year was a breakthrough in that I have been running -28, got to 5 ball at -32, and ran my -30 training loop. What I’m about to say is something I heard a million times- from short line guys on my lake that are much better than me, coaches in FL, from Nate when I was lucky enough to ski with him, I heard it on this forum when I’ve reached out for advice. There are even different ways to word it but the core principle was always this: I was not in a stacked position. And everyone was right. That’s why I frequently struggled even with my -22 pass. So this summer was a breakthrough for me because I realized I didn’t even know what a true stacked position felt like before. And here’s why- it’s extremely hard! It’s a very unusual feeling and feels very unnatural initially and it’s very hard to get used to. It’s a fast position & takes strength. Short line lengths put major load on the body. For me personally, I have 2 thoughts that have to be in place for me to run a smooth -28. 1. Stay on the front of my ski, I need to keep pressure on my front foot. If I’m back on my tail I’m dead- no way to maintain angle and speed without keeping pressure on the front of my ski. 2. As I complete my turn I have to keep my front shoulder/chest back and up (that’s right shoulder at 1,3,5) and have the sense that I’m pointing it at the sky. This was an absolute revelation to me, a huge key. Again, very hard to do! But I haven’t had an OTF since & those aren’t fun at -28 or shorter. The other thing we all need is a driver who is very patient! The only way to get decent at those things is blow a million passes and fall and screw it up a ton before any degree of muscle memory kicks in. I’m very lucky to have patient friends & family that know when I’m floating saying “can you pull me 1 more pass please?” that they’ll hear that about 10 more times and they still put up with me. I have a million things to work on beyond that- I appreciate the importance of the gate at shorter lines. And my edge change is late. I’m working on these things. But without a stacked position across the wakes these other issues, in my humble opinion, are superfluous.