Are your bindings is the right place? An Experiment

[Horton]

Are your bindings is the right place?

 

When you get binding settings from another skier who is using another brand of binding how do you compensate? If you use a Wiley, Reflex or a Radar binding how do you know if you are at stock?

 

I did a little experiment today to see. Before every one screams BullS**t! This was my first try and I am aware that it is not as accurate as I want it to be.

 

This line was much more vertical when we drew it. I think I am standing wrong (camera angle?) in the photo but this is something to be addressed next time I do this. There needs to be a standard method of some sort.

 

Here is the Wiley & Reflex and Radar

 

 

I marked each plate where I think my ankle bone is and then measured the distance from where I generally measure the binding when I mount it up. (The actual marks on the plate were less haphazard than the photos appear)

 

Results

Wiley= 3.3" to 3.4"

Reflex = 3.0" to 3.1"

Radar = 3.1" to 3.2"

 

Again I admit this is not as accurate as it could be. This is a first try but you can see that if you get settings from a skier in rubber and you use Reflex the difference could be 1/3"!?!?!? When I started my D3 Helix 3 review I got binding settings from Paul Crawford. He uses D3 T-Factor bindings. I had to move my Radar bindings back more that a 10th to get my foot in the same place as Paul has his.

 

 

[Horton]

I expected a much bigger delta from rubber to Radar.

 

 

[ozski]

Sh1t variables in top of a variable! What about foot size and placement inside the boot, another variable. I try not to get too caught up on this stuff possibly to the detriment of my skiing, I do agree that you need to consider the type of boot your using and I had to make allowances for the difference with the profile boot on my Helix.

[DUSkier]

I think the big thing to remember is that binding and fin settings are a GUIDE. Due to the differences you mention, the way we measure fins (especially DFT) etc. I know after changing to FM's from HO Approaches I ended up 10mm further forward with binding position on the same ski!!!!!

[DefectiveDave]

@Horton,

 

I like this method, great work. Thanks! Since you have a mark on your leg and the ski, those function as constants. Really the only variables are how well you can line the ruler up and potentially any obstructions trying to place the measurement on the ski. I have no idea what your uncertainty is, but it's a good start.

 

The only thing I can think of to improve upon it, I might suggest a jig against which you can brace your leg (a kitchen chair might even work). It would need to touch your leg at 2 places, the easiest are probably 2 spaced points on the shin for consistency (the knee moves too much). This would ensure the leg was constantly at near the same angle every time you changed the binder configuration. Then you could attach a plumbob to your jig and mark where that intersects the ski.

 

Done right I think this could take out much of the uncertainty with lining up the ruler (if it's even significant to begin with).

 

You wouldn't happen to have an HO Apex boots lying around to do the same measurement?

[eleeski]

Lisa switched from rubber boots to Radar Lyric boots. Over an inch (3 - 4 cm) later she had things about right. But she did have to give up the rear double boot in favor of a toe kicker and a heel strap.

 

Be willing to change things - a lot if needed.

 

Eric

[Nando]

I've always used my ankle bone as the reference point (where Horton's vertical line crosses his ankle bone). For example, I had been skiing HO Animals at the factory setting and when switching to Reflex, I marked the point where I've got a kind of distinctive pointy bump on my ankle bone on the binding, transferred it to the ski, found the corresponding spot on the reflex shell, and mounted it there. Measuring from the back of the horseshoe on a rubber binding always seemed awfully arbitrary- does it make sense for a skier with a size 8 shoe to mount his binding in the same place as one with a size 13? No way!

[bassfooter]

@Horton this is way better than any other ideas I've seen. I think you're on to something, and I think @DefectiveDave has some good ideas for enhancements. I tried to do the same thing moving from a Wiley high-wrap to a Reflex front on my old X7 - I went for a measurement on my leg and foot vs. the binding hardware. I ended up with the Reflex an eighth-inch or so too far forward at first, but I had to ski on it to reach that conclusion, which was made more complicated by having to adapt to the very different feeling of that front Reflex. It was well worth my time to carefully measure. Moving this setup to my new Lithium Vapor went that much more quickly and my skiing got better after only a couple sets on the new ski.

[DaveD]

Where did you find a ruler that measures 1/3"?

[Horton]

@DaveD I have a steel rule that has 10ths & I can round in my head.

[Deke]

I like @DefectiveDave comment about getting the leg in the same position each time. But instead of the plumb bob you could use a framing square against the floor.

[rab]

I agree with @Deke, if you always measured with the line on your leg going straight up and down it should give pretty consistent results. Where the line is on your leg shouldn't make that much difference so long as the line goes through your ankle bump thing. My ankle bump seems to only move about a 1/4" as I bend from back to front.

[bishop8950]

Understanding foot placement over different bindings is tricky and I like what Horton is doing with the measurements. I just want to ad that you may not want your feet in the same place with two different styles of bindings because of the differences in the bindings. For example, a Hardshell will typically limit forward flex more than a a Wiley so you might find that different actually foot placements will work best. How much different? I don't know and haven't done any real experimenting but 1/4" wouldn't surprise me. The measurements are a great starting point but I would think you still need to tweak by feel when using significantly different bindings.

[Horton]

bump for @Howa1500

[disland]

I wish the ski manufactures would describe what binders are used for their standard "stock" numbers. I have to believe nowadays since most pro's seem to be on Reflex its more the standard than rubber

[gregy]

I was looking at the manual that came with my Reflexes and I notice on there skis they give a measurement to the ankle bone.

[Stevie Boy]

I have looked at this before with varying results, the way I think it should be done is to strap or tape one of those laser levels to your knee draw a the line on your leg, align the laser with the line on the leg and then mark the ski, change binding and repeat , see how far the line is out, the only problem is a small movement can affect the results, probably need some one else to help, the real way to do it would be with one of those airport scanners, @Horton how much money do you have ?

@Horton just for interest if you could use your method, but have something at knee height to put your knee against and then line the line up, but I would mount the bindings on a short piece of wood, not a ski, to get reference on differences.

Even short piece of wood with binding on and knee against the wall, just an idea.

[gavski]

Why don't waterski manufactures draw an arrow on the side of the ski that indicates 'middle' - as is the case on snow skis. Then bindings can have a corresponding 'middle' mark which is the 'middle' of the binding or foot - again as is with ski boots. At least you would then have a universal standard to make adjustments etc...

I think this experiment is spot on...heal placement is too random...

[Than_Bogan]

I think Kevin's observations unfortunately trump all attempts to match up position: In different bindings, you don't necessarily want your foot in the same spot!

 

When I switched from the P80 shells (that I never really liked) to the OB4 shells (that I love), I tried to match up my foot location. This wasn't the right spot at all, and I ended up moving back 1/4". I think it was just a random coincidence, but the final spot that felt good actually put me in the same spot by tail-to-back-of-boot measurement, even though my foot wasn't in the same spot.

[Stevie Boy]

It has been said to me that Skiers using RTP can get away with running their bindings forward a bit, so I agree with @bishop8950 it is not an exact thing what works for one may not work for others, ski setups are very much a individual thing.

[Waternut]

Cool project! I'd say this makes a lot of sense for me. I ride a Reflex and have always started at stock settings and seem to always move my binding back about 1/8"-1/4" back from stock on all my Radar's and D3 ski's (5 ski's in total). Figured it was just my style....

[chris55]

It makes a lot of sense, I never thaught of that this way. I would have thought that the middle of the ski would be a start with the middle of the foot. Horton's way is much clearer for me, thank you.

[Horton]

@disland

[The_MS]

I just move mine around until my performance is peaked.

[skibug]

Someone needs to come up with a micro-adjust that you can do while sitting in the water at the end of a run. Just a small ratchet or knob you twist and the bindings move....that would be AWESOME!!!

[ToddL]

< never mind... >

 

[chris55]

Skijay is talking about fin length not binding position. Is there something I am missing ?????

[ToddL]

Crap. You're right, @chris55 .

[JackQ]

I think you all are over thinking this. All you need is an approximate starting point. The best location will depend on how you stand on the ski, your body position and your style.

 

What i do is get a couple of passes to adapt to the ski, then at your hardest pass that you can make 90+ percent of the time, move the binder forward a hole or 1/8" at a time until you go "damn that is too much" Now ski a couple of passes one hole back from where you know it is to far forward to get comfortable again. Now try one hole back and see if you like it. And repeat going back if you find your previous position better.

 

In one set you can find where you have your sweet spot At the most i may find that i have narrowed down my choice to two positions that i can't tell apart that both feel good. In that case I choose the most forward position. I paid for the whole ski, I matter as well use as much as i can.

 

Now you can play with the fin, if i could only master that engema I really run some slalom.

[cruznski]

This to me is an issue where the industry really has not done well by the user. I like what is described here- at least some standard attempt to define what the foot position is. In snow skis there is a DIN standard and it is the center of weight of the ball of the foot- at least in that industry there's a place on the ski and a mark on the boot to get it in the right place. I just had an issue with this using old HO Aniamals (two layers of thick rubber on the heel) mounting on my Goode which i has used successfully with other binders in the past - i biased the position by the added material vs my old binding and the results were very good but I do not know if it is optimal However, then the next thing that I have commented on before comes up- why for gosh sakes are the holes 3/16" apart and we are arguing over .005" on the fin? This binding mounting plate is like 30 years old, I think and you have to search (and thankfully to the readers) i have input on some micro adjust after market mounting schemes, but really folks. Also, to me citing the distance to the back of the heel makes no sense when you have size 13 feet vs size 6. Horton might be correct, the ankle is the point but I just had to chime in here.

[chris55]

Reading all the posts again I am surprise that the waterski industry did not put a mark on the ski like alpine skis.....factory setting for the binding is "the ankle bone to the mark on the ski" then if you are 8 or 12 foot size, no more scratching head. Whatever binding you have, just start with the mark and ankle bone. Maybe it will come...hopefully.....it would be so "normal"

[Horton]

@chris55 ask any factory and they will tell you that stock is middle hole with their binding : (

[Roger]

When several of us went from rubber to hard shells here at Okeeheelee, we came up with measuring where your ankle bone was on the rubber binding and setting the hard shell to the same ankle bone position. However, due to the leverage differences, this was not always the final position...

[chris55]

@Horton maybe you can use your influence as THE TESTER of the waterski world :) if you agree with me of course

[Horton]

@chris55 mmmm I have some influence but not that much. We need a universal back binding hole pattern first and that is NEVER going to happen.

[Horton]

@JackQ skiers should not have to cook fin and binding settings from scratch for a new ski. When I pull a ski out of the box I want really good starting settings for the first ride. If I have to waste 5 - 10 sets working out where stuff goes I might as well send the ski back.

[tjm]

Reviving an old thread. Put my Wiley bindings on an ARCs at stock 29.25. Loved the ski. For sake of experimenting put bindings at 29 which is? on the surface, back from stock. Loved the ski even more. Could it be at 29 with Wiley I am actually at intended stock. Perhaps.

[SkiJay]

@tjm

Of all the factory spec numbers, binding location is the most meaningless. With binding stiffness, rear binding choices, measuring techniques, foot size, height, weight, and unique skiing techniques all contributing to the mix, binding location is more personal and often more critical than fin setup. If you like your new location better, then it's better. Factory recommendations are just an average starting point.

[Drago]

Your center of balance is your inside ankle bone. I think the average distance from your inside ankle bone to the back of the heel is 2 1/2”. I suggest measuring this distance and changing your original binding placement acccordingly. Saves time.(My ankle is 3” forward of my heel, so I go back 1/2 inch from recommendation, then explain this or just tell anyone that asks I’m at stock)

[Horton]

Bump for all the guys thinking about new bindings this year. I will do this process with the new Radar Vapor boot in the next week.

[ski6jones]

@Horton thanks. Not sure how I missed this one the first time around.

[tjm]

@horton. Did you ever get around to the process for vapor boot?

[Horton]

@tjm I totally forgot. Things are crazy right now but I need to do this.

[tjm]

@Horton I do get the "crazy". Thanks.

[Stevie Boy]

Deleted due to possible Panda Material

 

[KRoundy]

I have dual Vapors on a carbon sequence place on my 69" Senate and I put them right at the 0 mark on the plate. I believe that is "right at the middle" so-to-speak. I've loved this setup from day 1 and just now realize I have never moved them to try anything else. I have a Whisper Fin Pro on the ski as well, all set at the recommended settings for my ski.

[Horton]

Darn I wish those original images were there. I might dig though the photo archive for those at some point.

[Drago]

@Horton So when you bring back old  threads, banned posters get clemency?

[Horton]

@Drago

No. Only @The_MS gets clemency.

You would not believe the level of flaming hate that showed up in my email yesterday from a former member. 

[aupatking]

I’m still trying to find the right place on the 23 Vapor boot when going from ski to ski. Stock is a starting point. That’s all. As Horton said in the original 2015 post, something needs to be “standard”. A mark on the plate, on the boot itself, something. That, though, is MUCH easier said than done. I definitely don’t have the answer