Is Being Safe Just Too Difficult?

[lhoover]

A question, please, for Scot Ellis, Malibu boat ad guy, Freddie Winter, Supra boat ad guy, Whitney McClintock, Nate Smith, Stephen Collins, Drew Ross, Frederick Halt, Stephen Neveu, Tiare Miranda, Alejandra De Osma, Curtis Rabe, Danny Amir, Peter Fleck, Paul Wadina, Todd Ristorcelli, Marion Mathieu, Emma Sheers, Freddy Krueger, Matteo Luzzeri, Thibuat Dailland, Brian Detrick, Nautique boat ad woman, Mastercraft boat ad guy, Will Asher, Overtons ad guy, PerfectPass ad guy, John Travers, Neilly Ross, and KC Wilson. Can you give me just one good reason why you ski without a handle guard?

[pgmoore]

I strongly suspect that years from now we will look back at the idea of skiing without a guard in disbelief. Kind of like how we'd look at riding a bike without a helmet now.

 

Both just might save your life.

[GOODESkier]

If you go snow skiing now and don't wear a helmet, you look like the tool.........

 

For $25 I have a handle guard..........

[aupatking]

I've been using a handle guard for a little while. Just needs more market focus, and more market presence. They should probably be sold with the handles, not as an accessory. Good luck getting all the rope players on board. Like you said, I'm sure it will happen, eventually.

@lhoover I like where your heads at, but you just put 20 people on the defensive

[GOODESkier]

my 2 cents...... I mount mine with thin shock cord rather than pesky zip ties. going on third season and working well. Wouldn't ski without it.

[Andre]

I was in Orlando lately for a week.I must have seen at least 40 peoples ski during that week including around 16 pro skiers.Only 2 peoples used a handle guard including me and no pros was using one.

The new bigger loop at the end of today's ropes make swapping handles with guards easy.

But i saw many spray leg sleeves... ;)

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@lhoover before you get on your high horse about handle guards, you must realize that the majority of guards out there will still allow your arm to go at least partially through the opening. If this happens during a fall, there is the very real risk that your arm will become trapped and you will be drug down the lake by your now broken arm - a potentially more serious injury than some of the really bad arm through the handle injuries that we've seen. Handle guards will prevent some, but not all, arm through the handle injuries.

 

If you are that worried about other skiers safety, are you going to make a similar question about anyone who goes over the ramp? Unlike arm through the handle, serious injuries in jumping are simply a matter of time and severity, not "if".

[MISkier]

I'm more concerned with head through the handle.

[Wish]

So I'm good then??. My head does not fit through my ML handle...at all. Wonder what percentage of heads do not, without a little effort, fit through a handle. And how many heads have gone through vs not with the skiing population as a whole? Seems like driving to the lake would be a higher risk of severe injury.

[drewski32]

I've always used a single strand of duct tape so my head doesn't fit but there's plenty of room for my arm to come back out if it does go in. I've never had my head touch the handle, but I've put an arm through and luckily just had my glove ripped off and nothing else.

[PatM]

If I'm not mistaken most if not all of the head through the handle incidents the skier was using a 13" handle. I switched to a 12" a long time ago for this reason.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@lhoover, one more thing - a couple of the skiers you singled out by name are high end jumpers. While you are asking questions of these folks, here are a few more questions you might include:

 

How many times have you been to the ER for a jump crash?

How many times have you been to the ER for an arm through handle fall?

How many surgeries have you had as a result of a jump crash?

How many surgeries have you had as a result of an arm through the handle fall?

How many periods of extensive re-hab have you had due to jump crashes?

How many periods of extensive re-hab have you had due to an arm through the handle fall?

Have you ever been in a car accident?

 

You might find a clue in the answers to these questions.

[jimbrake]

@GOODESkier - if you don't wear a helmet snow skiing, you look like a "tool"? Really? I think you're a __ tool. As long as we are talking about looks - are you helmet and sunglasses guy? Are you cognizant of your gaper gap?

 

I use a handle guard.

[jimbrake]

 

What a tool.

 

[liquid d]

because most of them have skied for 30 years 4-5 days a week without having an incident. How many ride bikes without a helmet. It's a personal choice.

[jimbrake]

How many times have you been to the ER for a jump crash? Twice.

How many times have you been to the ER for an arm through handle fall? Once.

How many surgeries have you had as a result of a jump crash? Four.

How many surgeries have you had as a result of an arm through the handle fall? Fortunately none.

How many periods of extensive re-hab have you had due to jump crashes? Three.

How many periods of extensive re-hab have you had due to an arm through the handle fall? One.

Have you ever been in a car accident? Yes. Once.

 

Nevermind the head - I think you should also do everything you can to prevent an arm through the handle. And from my experience, if your arm goes through, ain't no handle guard (outside of some rigid metal contraption) gonna trap it in there. It's coming back out. What happens on the way out is what matters.

[GOODESkier]

@jimbrake ya know.......

 

“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain

 

Sounds/Looks like you have the experience!

[adkh2oskier]

I started using the handle guard when the last skier died in NY about 6 yrs ago? I think it's a simple solution to putting your head through the opening and saving your life. That said, in all the passes and ski rides on open water over the past 30 or so yrs how many falls have resulted in your head going through the handle? My uneducated guess would be several hundred thousand passes and ski rides safely completed. So I guess if you just go with the law of averages you are pretty unlikely to suffer a fatal injury from the head through the handle. Boils down to personal choice since you are not hurting anyone else unless they happen to witness the fall that results in death and suffer emotional trauma.

I have had one fall at a tournament where my arm went trough the opening and thankfully only resulted in some bad bruising. It happens so fast you really don't even know what has happened. That fall was long before anyone had handle guards. I still snow ski without a helmet but I am probably going to get one for next season since I snow ski as much as I waterski.

 

[Than_Bogan]

I'm very hesitant to judge other people's safety-related decisions: Risks are extremely hard to evaluate precisely (both the probabilities and the [negative] value of outcomes), and the reward side of the equation (which also includes inconvenience etc.) can depend very much on the individual.

 

My personal computation is that the probability of any through-handle incident is very very low, but that the consequence of a head-through is so severe that I desire to take steps to prevent it. However, due to the extremely low probability of the incident, I would not be willing to sacrifice any performance and very little convenience.

 

Preventing an arm-through is less important to me and I have not yet found any reliable way to do so that doesn't come with performance consequences.

 

A piece of Duct Tape met these requirements for several years, and I am now very happy with the In-Tow guard bar.

 

I would only chide those folks who haven't given it any consideration, because it may be that certain risks can be eliminated with low effort and no performance loss. But for those that have considered it and reached a different conclusion that I have, that's their prerogative.

[Texas6]

The beautiful thing about being free, is we get to make our own decisions. Feel free to disagree, as that is also what makes us great. You want to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, or race cars, or strap yourself into a top fuel dragster; your call! I do use Brenda's handle with the cross-bar to save my melon...

[Bruce_Butterfield]

One final comment. This thread did not start with whether handle guards are a good idea or not. Personally, I think they are and I use one myself.

 

This thread started with a poster calling out a group of skiers by name - a group I'm sure he doesn't know or has ever met - and implied they were idiots because they didn't use something he thought they should. That's where my heartburn is. That kind of crap belongs on skifly, not on BOS.

[Wish]

Risk prevention is personal. I have hard shells that do not release. Been on that system since 2001. 0 ankle injuries. I have my theory's as to why and explain it to those that say I'm nuts (hear that a lot) if they are willing to hear a different perspective. Open discussion is good and can enlighten. People have been mentioned on this forum that have died from melanoma skin cancer and others going through a years worth of hell not knowing if they will come out on the other side alive including myself. So I mention the risks, state the prevention, and the best I can do is hope it saves lives. Still a choice though. Calling out the people that I see spend to much unprotected time in the sun on an open forum will do little to no good in changing minds of those that do. And it's as easy as and successful to prevent as a head going through a handle....have you seen your Dermitologist...simple.

 

 

[The_MS]

I use a US gear 12 inch .940 and my head does not fit into the handle opening.

[Razorskier1]

I'd have worried more about this when I was younger and threw myself at buoys in hopes of making passes. Several years ago (after multiple injuries and surgeries) I realized another buoy isn't worth it. If I'm in trouble, I just don't go for it anymore. I believe this proactive choice does far more to limit my risk of injury, from any source including going into the handle, more than equipment can.

[Horton]

 

What you guys may be missing is why most manufactures do not sell handles with some sort of guard. It is all about liability. You would think that a safer handle would mean less liability but that is not necessarily true.

 

Two reasons. Selling the safer handle means admitting the old one is not safe. If someone gets hurt with safer handle that means the safety feature was not good enough. You get sued either way.

 

You fix a lot of things in this world with a lot less lawyers.

 

[Texas6]

Amen

[swc5150]

The OP raised an interesting point in my mind. I don't recall ever seeing a pro slalom skier use a guard. I'd be curious to hear their point of view on them. I think they're a good safety measure, and I'll be making my daughter use one for sure.

[Wish]

Let's also keep in mind that a good chunk of the pros are are in their 20s. Frontal lobe (portion of brain that says "don't..it's dangerous") has not fully developed yet.

[ForrestGump]

Don't worry, @Jimbrake ..... I'm a tool too. Helmets mess up my hair skiing.

[6balls]

Skiing in general likely carries more baseline risk on injury than the difference in skiing with/without a handle guard.

 

[jimbrake]

@shaneh - thank you, brother. I been tryin' to tell 'em.

 

@6balls - that may very well be true. This appears to be one of those things where a lot of people don't really believe until it happens to them. Hopefully, if it does, it's not catastrophic. Maybe just some bruising on the arm. I got a dislocated elbow and missed a season, but came back fine. Others aren't so lucky.

[ozski]

If handle guards were cool, looked cool or had sponsors branding plastered all over them we might see a top down trend towards using them. I'm using my first ever handle with the guard (thanks Brends @ Intow) and its THE best handle I've ever used, no performance negative. I am the only skier on our lake that uses one however. Now from a technical perspective I'm currently focusing on handle control and being very "controlled and deliberate" from release to hookup which is certainly helping me ski better and safer I believe.

[liquid d]

https://screen.yahoo.com/snl-iconic-skits/bag-glass-000000237.html

so many dangerous things

[MattP]

@liquid d classic.

[Stevie Boy]

It comes down to Personal choice, we are all responsible for our own actions, over thirty years how many ski tows versus handle incidents.

Just interested, but does the risk of a handle incidents increase @38 off and below ?

I do not use a handle guard, my choice, but I do know a very good skier and a very nice person, who did not deserve the misfortune of a serious handle incident, that changed his life, I believe he died several times on the operating table, but came through in the end.

He still skis 35 & 38 off with no handle guard.

[LeonL]

@Stevie Boy yes I truly believe that 38 and shorter(maybe 35) the risk increases due to where the skier is on the boat at the buoy, and the geometry involved at that point.

[lhoover]

Good Grief, some of you folks need to calm down as I never meant to get your life jackets in a wad. I just continue to be rather shocked, as is evidenced by all those high-profile folks queried, that a very simple, inexpensive safety device is not utilized. Never said force them, never said they are stupid and so is their Mother, never said I'm better cause I have one and you don't. Good Grief, calm down.

 

We have all read, and perhaps some have seen, some horrific accidents, even deaths, that just maybe could have been prevented with a handle guard. Maybe. We have had a horrible accident at our lake that, just maybe, could have been prevented with a handle guard. Maybe.

 

Conversely, never have I heard of a horrible accident where a handle guard was the cause. Has anyone? Enlighten us, please.

 

So, we have had dozens of comments, over a thousand views, and still no one has answered a very simple question, which I shall repeat: can you tell me just one reason me why you ski WITHOUT a handle guard?

 

In the interim, HHH (High Horse Hoov) shall remain in the saddle. And great, safe skiing to all.

[6balls]

@lhoover reasons:

1.) I view the risk as too small to mitigate and thus accept it and will also accept the results on an injury to me, should it occur, that may have been prevented by a handle guard.

2.) We ski in a weedy swamp, I already spend enough time managing rope/handle weeds.

3.) I wear clincher-style gloves and tend to ski with the handle deeper in my palm than some, therefore need more clearance. If I miss a grab on as PB pass with a handle guard...it comes off for good.

4.) The line takes the handle from me in virtually every fall I take...hard to get anything misplaced through there when I still have a grip on the handle until it's pulled from my hand. Old endurance bare-footer habits.

 

If anyone else wants to wear one...no issue with their personal risk assessment and measure to address same.

[thager]

I use one for practice. I do not use one at tournaments. Maybe those queried do the same.

[Wish]

Why do you not see your Dermitologist once a year.? Why are there so many that do not?. Has anyone suffered significant skin cancer with a history of seeing a Dermitologist annually?

 

The same question could be said about Coast Guard approved vests I suspect.

 

The premis if your question borders on silly.

 

"can you tell me just one reason me why you ski WITHOUT a handle guard?"

 

Which I believe is why the responses are the way they are. Your question was answered multiple times....so to sum up:

 

Personal choice

Frontal lobe in pros not developed

Low low low occurrence of injury

 

Well ..actually I'll let you find the rest of the answers to your question, but the better way to maybe have enlightened folks would have been to state your personal experience, others, and a possible solution to the problem. No question even needed. And no call out list either. But do take pride in knowing over 1000 people (possibly) have heard your concern and in actuality, have been enlightened. The way you went about it could have been intentional to spark debate but after reading your last post it seems it was not.

[oldjeep]

How about - nobody is requiring it? The waterski sanctioning body isn't making people use one.

 

I never wore a helmet ski racing until 2011 when I was required to for a national race. I do wear one most of the time now out of habit, but never had an occurrence where I had wished I had one in the past.

 

FWIW - the one person I actually knew who died skiing was wearing a helmet, nothing fully takes the risk out of risky sports.

[Killer]

I don't believe you can compare a helmet in any sport to a handle gaurd of some kind. There are a number of skiers I've had the pleasure to train with that wear or have worn a helmet slalom, mostly due to past injuries. Helmets are helmets and you have a much higher risk of injuring your head skiing than putting you arm and definitely your head through the handle.

 

arm and especially head through the handle injury is such a low risk situation. I know people use guards and like them, but from when I've tried them (FM guard and us gear guard) they absolutely change how the handle reacts in the air, especially on windy days, and it can be more difficult to grab. Maybe you can get used to it, but I couldn't.

 

Already mentioned was the increased risk of putting your arm through the handle and it getting caught. A very real situation.

 

where's thomas wayne when you need him? :smiley:

[MISkier]

I have been waiting for my new Arm Guard from TW since July. Still using my old one, but it is beginning to crack. I really like them.

[ski6jones]

Lots of people saying low risk of occurrence for arm through handle injuries. I know of three personally, two in the last 10 years of skiing and one of them was me. All were bad and required surgery. FWIW.

[jerrym]

I ski with a handle guard. Just wish it helped my stack.

I ski with a helmet. Warmer, more comfortable, no more pulling pine boughs out of my hat....

I see my dermatologist once a year.

Why? I wanna ski again tomorrow!!

[6balls]

In medicine we do not test everyone for everything with reason. There are routine testing standards that are based on prevalence, risk, studies and statistics. There are rare things that slip through the cracks for individuals that may be significant, but the pool number is small enough that the cost/risk/benefit analysis does not make sense to apply looking for it in the general population. Despite someone dying of cancer "X" at age "Y", it does not make sense to screen everyone.

 

Seat belt use has solid data. Every once in a while someone survives an accident unbelted who would have died belted...but the odds are not in one's favor unbelted overall. In black jack double down on a hit on 15 and you might win here and there...but don't make it your practice.

 

No medical/screening/task forces recommend annual colonoscopy by GI, annual stress tests by cardiology, or annual skin exams by dermatology. If you have a history of melanoma or a family history of same, many DO recommend annual derm exam but for the average risk population...this is not recommended. @wish all due respect I hope you know I'm not attacking you as a great guy here. Some common sense without getting into specifics...an enlarging freckle/mole? Something scabbed and not healing?...have your doc take a look. Be familiar with your own skin so you can identify changes and bring them to medical attention.

 

Why this post on this thread? We can't prevent all risk in medicine without undue measures that may be overkill based on statistical risk of the condition in question. Likewise, we can't prevent all athletic risk without undue measures that may be overkill based on statistical risk of the condition in question.

 

When I talk to my patients...I let them know the risk/benefit/alternative to the decision...not based on anecdote but based on data and statistics. If there are not good stats I let them know too...we know far less than we could in my work world. Their choice is based on their informed acceptance of risk.

 

Seat belts have data and statistics. Riding a motorcycle has data and statistics (regardless of helmet), flying private aircraft has data and statistics, flying commercial has data and statistics.

Handle guards if studied may have compelling data, but for now only have anecdotes. Assess your acceptance of risk and choose accordingly. To each their own.

 

 

 

 

 

[Wish]

@6balls agree with all of what you say but I think activities such as ours increase risk. Plenty live long and healthy lives from excess sun exposure, but still in a higher risk category so that visit, while not enforced may be a good idea at the very least. And a little less invasive than the one you mentioned. ;-)

[dchristman]

How times have changes with regard to what's considered safe skiing.

 

 

No activists or lawyers in sight... the good old days. Don't just watch, you have to listen to the audio.

[Freddie Winter]

@lhoover Since you mentioned me, heres one good reason. A few years ago I heard a story about a guy who put his ring finger through the loop that held the guard to the handle while falling. It ripped his glove off along with most of the skin and muscle on the finger. I've never had a problem with my handle ripping pieces of the hands I need to ski with off of me. This is why I ski with the set up I have always felt safe using, a 12 inch handle. Hows that?

[Than_Bogan]

@FWinter Fwiw, I don't believe I could get a finger caught in Brenda's bar if I spent the entire day trying. It's a compromise worth considering.

 

In any case, keep up the great skiing! Excited to follow your career!!