Than's Denali Log

[Ed_Johnson]

@mmosley899 ... Thanks Mike, keep the info coming, I know you have great technical expertise, and look forward to your evaluation.

[GOODESkier]

I am hearing great off-side turn, but challenging on-side from people still talking to me.........

[Horton]

I watched @adamhcaldwell run 39 @ 36 off the dock last night. Holy Cow does that ski turn.

[skidawg]

And he just ran it first round on the tourney

[Than_Bogan]

Go Adam! Any damage at -41?

[Wish]

Just inside 2

[skidawg]

1

[Than_Bogan]

Well, apparently this ski is not literally a miracle. If you try hard enough, you can still suck on it... Better luck next time :).

 

Just one of those days where nothing I was doing was right.

[ozski]

And nor should it be Than, that would spoil the fun.

[gregy]

Looks strange to see a skier on it. From a distance it kinda looks like there skiing on a black 1x6. Everyone I saw looked good on it.

[Than_Bogan]

It is a really different visual. When @MikeT tried it for one set, I almost laughed every time he entered the mirror. Afterward I said "well, if this ski is as good as I think it is, I guess we'll get used to that visual."

[Ed_Johnson]

@gregy ... Like me, you know your going to have to get one !!!

[gregy]

@Ed_Johnson sure would like to try one. Saw wish and Bruce Butterfield on them today also Adam Caldwell. Hopefully the Adams will have all the kinks ironed out by spring. Also had an interesting ride on a V-typeR. Wouldn't mind having a few more sets on it. Right now though my goal is to get a boot setup I'm comfortable with then try out some new skis in the spring.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

I got my new proto on wed and have been tweaking between each set. The second round today was the first time I skied 2 sets in a row without a change. While my scores weren't noteworthy, the more I ride and learn about this ski, the more I like it.

[Than_Bogan]

Quick set today. Conditions significantly better, but still a little rolly. Water in the 50s and orange and red leaves all around.

 

Was able to tie my season best with 4 (and on the way to 5) at -38. My two -35s were crazy easy.

 

With no context at all, this is pretty great. Understanding the temp and slight backwash ... "wow" just seems to be the word again.

 

I think I'm almost used to the crazy speed, but I still don't *quite* trust it to just turn with that much speed, even though it does every time. Gotta learn how to believe!

 

Gotta say this ski is just fun. Even without the great scores I've been getting, all this speed and turning ability is a fun way to ski.

[IronR1]

@Than_Bogan, are you now on the 65'´ or always on 66'´ and with wich flex?

[Than_Bogan]

Still 66. I actually don't know the flex! @adamhcaldwell?

[Razorskier1]

Smoked my first 38 on our public lake site of the year today on the Denali. I'm learning, and the more I learn the better I like the ski!

[Than_Bogan]

Feel like I have to mention this: Tried 8.5 degrees today. In ridiculous bitter conditions (43 deg air, face-numbing diagonal wind) I ran straight up the rope to 2.5 @ -38. "Surely" that's my lifetime best in under-45 degree weather and usually I suck at crosswinds!

 

I think 8.5 is a keeper. Seemed to increase stability without sacrificing the crazy speed. Especially impressive when I ran tail-cross -35 after what I can only call a catastrophic 1 ball.

[ozski]

Great feedback Than, you must hate the fact that winter is coming on. Come visit us here in AU over our summer if you like!

[6balls]

I saw @razorskier1's 38 on the Denali and it looked stupid easy. Caveat...his lake is tough AND it's October in drysuit season with very cold water temps.

At least for Jim this sounds very promising...his lake doesn't give up 38's easily especially this time of year.

[thager]

Ahhh Crap! Now I am going to have to get one!

 

[mmosley899]

@thager While I think the ski has great potential, I have yet to find the settings that make the ski perform at the level that has been touted in some accounts. Unfortunately the weather is not getting better for testing out skis at Whitestone, and I will have to try again with warmer weather. While the most of the new skis I have tried are great performers, finding the one that fits your skiing style is not always easy. Ski it and ski it again...

[thager]

@mmosley899 I am pretty sure there is no ski made that fits my style. Visualize asymmetric

violence? As long as it looks cool and has big spray it is close enough!!!

[DanE]

@Wish @Than_Bogan Don't get this the wrong way but from the few videos I have seen with different skiers on the Denali I see two distinctive characteristics from this ski.

First: offside turns looks foolproof, either all skiers on this ski really excels in offside skills or the ski helps alot.

Second: onside turn seems a little drastic, either a neck breaking pivot for a turn or a little bit of hesitation followed by some tip rise.

Would describe what I see from some skiers onside is that they look a little "gunshy" if you know what I mean?

Am I way off base here or are you just not at liberty to say?

[Adam Caldwell]

@DanE Its no doubt that this ski runs a different path in the course then any ski has before. With how rapidly the ski decelerates and changes directions after apex, getting the fin dialed in is critical to smoothing out both sides of the course. The interesting part, is that even without the comfort, security, and predictability, people are running some pretty impressive scores almost immediately.

 

Hopefully some of these other guys can chime in and comment further to your question.

 

 

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

@DanE

 

Firstly, my off-side is indeed smoother than my on-side, and always has been. Nevertheless, I think I know what you are seeing.

 

"Gunshy" may be an apt choice of words. I've mentioned in several places that the Denali often "feels" too fast -- like I'm going to fly by the ball into slack line. Except I never do. (Well, one time with some terrible fin settings I did.) No matter how I am screaming in, it just turns. And it doesn't lose much speed in doing so. Indeed, I think that is the real breakthrough of the design. And one great thing about it is that it gets better as the line gets shorter. At -28, that much speed makes the timing a challenge for me. By the time I am at -38, the speed turns into desperately-need width and is Just Plain Fun.

 

But it's certainly true that the "pivot" turn you see in many videos can take the skier by surprise. But it's not an out-of-control turn. My first day on the ski, I felt out of control most of the time, and yet I found myself running just about up to my season best!

 

Each day I learn to trust it more and more. It is awesome, but so different from what other skis do. Earlier last week I was absolutely flying into 4 (at -38) and my "old instinct" kicked in, telling me I had to wait for that to bleed off. Before I even got halfway toward 5 (which I missed), I was chastising myself. Forgot to believe. Shouldda just stepped on the front and turned it.

[Razorskier1]

I have found that the ski turns well on both sides of the course. In addition, it always feels like it gets between me and the boat. Honestly, it feels more stable and in control than other skis to me. I'm still learning but have done limited tuning, and yet -38 went down easy last weekend at a tough site in a tailwind. Turn velocity and angle aren't a problem with this ski because it is always moving. With other skis I'd turn hard and the ski would stop, then I'd get the massive load before moving again. Because it keeps moving, I don't get load d even if I turn hard. The ski is very easy on the body in this way, and across course earlier.

[Than_Bogan]

@Razorskier1 reminded me: Keep in mind that the public is watching as we search for factory settings. By the time Jim got on the ski, there was a building consensus about where to put things for success at 55k/11.25m. @Wish and I aren't in exactly the same place, but we've converged quite a lot during the search (and perhaps will converge even more). So @Razorskier1 started in that region of setup space.

 

Some of what you see on the videos of us testers is the "sausage making" -- the part of the process that is not normally seen by the public.

[Wish]

I can't wait for my offside to be as dialed as my onside. If that happens either through fin settings or operator settings it's game on. Cause and effect. My off side out of the turn and off to on side not always perfect and sometimes connection to load is delayed making onside look diff on video and I see that at times. But onside is on auto pilot and has been with every fin adjustment ...almost. Can't speak for the group but my onside is magic. I think more riders have felt this way then not. The change in direction is sharper then anything I've ever been on and not in a bad way. Anything bad is a direct result of my off side and getting used to set up for gates at this point. Never really feel out of control on my on side ...even when it gets me back in the pass when the ski snaps back under me. As @adamhcaldwell suggests, this ski takes a different path. For me, one I am still getting used to. Backsiding balls at 35.. and the ski isn't quite dialed in yet ( or me on it ) I'll take that!! And the 8 or so 38s in practice since late Sept. As to security I desagee with Adam..kinda. It is a huge security to have the feeling of never being able to blow a tail or (so far) not getting pitched OTF out of a turn. Makes me far more confident and well...less frightened of the possibility of injury. Kinda surprised he didn't say "science" in there somewhere.

[Razorskier1]

These are by no means perfect passes, but they are easy passes. In fact, 38 was going so easily that I almost gave the pass away by safety turning 4 and 5. Operator error aside, and there is plenty to pick on there, the ski works. Footnote: that is the only 38 I've run on that lake all summer, and in a normal summer less than 25% of my 38s come on this lake because it just ain't easy to ski there. Public lake, deeper, clear water, not much wind protection.

 

35 off --

 

38 off --

[Ed_Johnson]

@Razorskier1 .... Jim, that 35 looked like it was almost boring it was so easy..Even the 38 looked like only slightly more effort...Very impressive, I want one !!!

[DanE]

Thank you guys, reason I ask about the onside is I ski with a weak back leg so I need my ski to rotate effortless onside.

I'm currently on a Mapple 6.0 that is going to be replaced next season.

@Razorskier1 is probably a skier you should not accuse of having weak legs but you have been on the Mapple 6.0 and that is a ski I would describe as having an automatic effortless onside.

In that retrospect, how would you compare the Denali vs the Mapple 6.0?

[Wish]

@Ed_Johnson 35 kinda looks boring and almost slow-mo but reality is its fun to see and feel the ski turn the backside of the ball. Early on @Than_Bogan used the word "giddy" as an emotion after exiting gates. Pretty much sums it up.

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0tAJtslqeh1TTc1M0JkZmJGWjg/view?pli=1

[Razorskier1]

@DanE -- Mapple 6.0 still one of my all-time favorite skis. My son is skiing on mine now and is killing it at 36mph - big improvements in both buoy count and consistency for him and a minor fin tweak has made it even better. For me Mapple just runs and doesn't slow down, which is good if you know what to do with it. I ran more 38s on that ski in a single summer than I had in the previous three summers combined. I can't yet say that about the Denali, but I like what I feel so far. Denali feels more like I can control the speed, maintain it, increase it, decrease it. It is a strange sensation, because the ski just stays right under my feet at all times.

[Than_Bogan]

@DanE I believe you can tune the onside to be crazy-automatic with this ski. I found that reducing my wing angle a little bit turned my on-side into an effortless, fast, rotation. However, for me, that same setting made my off-side unpredictable, so I opted not to stay there.

[mmosley899]

@DanE like @OB1 I found the on side lacking, but love the off side! And the ski is fast! I need more warm weather to work on the onside settings. Guess I will have to go south with OB1 for more testing...

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@DanE, I think I would describe what you see a little differently. This ski is very forgiving in that you can get away with mistakes and the ski will stay with you instead of dump you in the water. Once the setup is close, both sides can be pretty automatic and the tip will stay down. If you see something drastic, more than likely the skier did something drastic, or the ski needs some tweaking.

 

The Denali certainly does generate more angle and space than most skiers are use to getting. I suspect what you may see as gunshy is more likely the skier not being use to getting that much angle and speed out of the turn.

 

[6balls]

I can't stress enuff how tuff it is to ski at @razorskier1's home public site. Prior to my multiple recent spine issues I had a season where I ran 38's on 5 lakes, PP, gazer, and ZO (and more 38's that season than all seasons combined)...Jim's lake wasn't one of 'em. I've never had a prayer at 38 on the water that fills that lake.

 

Jim runs it there some (and other places lots), but to run it there on near concrete water temps in a drysuit despite the safety turn at 5 and something is going right. Jim looks way more controlled on the Denali in that video than the flextail which also had it's merits but always seemed on the edge of amazing or too radical when I watched him...could help him kill a pass if skied just right but could blow one for him, too.

 

Could run 38 total hamburger at times...mistakes everywhere and out the end gates but not running smooth 38's. Just my two cents as a relatively frequent observer. Maybe not for everyone as for most skis that is true...but I see some real potential here for Jim not seen since the Mapple 6.0. Never liked how he looked on the T2. The Denali and whatever he is doing seems to be smoothing the process and taking away risk at shorter lines...less risk means more complete passes.

 

I tried his flextail...some cool potential but also left me in the drink at times unexpected at lines where that should not occur...super draggy into the turn if early. Carves like crazy but would really need to change me to make it work. Would be interested in a Denali set come spring.

 

[Adam Caldwell]

Like @Than_Bogan stated. Still packing the sausage.

[AdamCord]

You guys are literally sitting sitting front row watching the testing/R&D process. You'll notice that we don't have a website, we aren't doing marketing etc and the skis aren't for sale to the general public. If we wanted to make the ski look good we'd do what other companies do and take some top pros and shoot some video of them running 32off. That's not something we're interested in. We want to know if the ski can take a group of every-man non pro skiers and help them get to line lengths they haven't seen before. Through that process we can tweak the ski, find the settings that will work best, etc, that way if we do ever get around to offering the ski to the public, we can be confident it's a winner.

 

For a little insight into why the ski looks the way it does...smooth, "flowy" turns are great to watch, but stop and think about the implications of what those flowy turns mean. A ski that turns like that will take longer to turn, and this has a few implications. First you are out next to the boat in a vulnerable position(one hand on the handle, no support from the boat) for a longer time. Second is that you are running parallel to the boat for a longer time, meaning you have lost space and time to get to the next buoy. Forth is that you will scrub more speed over this longer duration so there is more load when you get back to the handle. And lastly you have less time to generate the speed needed to get across to the next buoy.

 

So as we have said, we really tried to think about what would allow us to run the best scores possible with this ski, and nothing else. Anyway sorry for the semi-rant, all comments and criticisms are absolutely welcome because that's what will help us make a better ski. It it's all flowers and sunshine then it won't get better. B)

[Than_Bogan]

So last night I skied in some pretty decent conditions, at least as far as late October in MA. I did not manage to complete a -38. Man, I am the worst. I was "in" every single attempt, but found ways to eff 'em up.

 

Still, I can argue that this pass represents my season best. I got a full 4 once earlier in the year and once recently on the Denali, but this one was a little better and perhaps could have been a 4.25 if I'd been willing to finish the set with an ambulance ride.

 

 

Around here, season bests in late October bring a lot of optimism for the future. But I still need to ski better. Sheesh.

[Razorskier1]

@Than_Bogan - that looked sooo easy! I agree with your assessment. If it feels that good in late October in 50 degree water and a drysuit . . . imagine what it is going to feel like in summer conditions! Last night I skied 28, 32, and six straight 35s. Clean and easy.

 

One comment from my driver (Mitch). He has commented repeatedly that despite the sharp turns on this ski, I feel softer, more connected, and better on the boat. As a skier I'd say the same. Never feels like much work back there. Sometimes that's my problem -- lose focus when it feels too easy. Sort of looks like that's what happened to @Than_Bogan!

[Than_Bogan]

@Razorskier1 Yeah -- too easy. I remember having this same problem when I was skiing better and I was new to my NanoOne: the ski would lull me to sleep no matter the line length because it was doing certain things better than I had ever experienced, convincing my subconscious that I didn't need to do anything myself. Well, it turns out that -38 does not run itself, even on amazing skis!

[DW]

Great thread and info, I personally am very interested in this ski. Just don't fall in to the trap of developing the ski in conditions only seen 10% of the time.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@dw you should have been at the BOS tourney. I dare say the "typical" slalom skier would have headed for the nearest big screen football game instead of attempting that wind. The Denali handled those conditions better than any ski I've been on in recent memory.

[Wish]

Agree with @Bruce_Butterfield. I had no buisness getting to 5 ball -35 in a 20mph tail. Operator error for not running it. Mostly because of the shock value of...hmmmm rounded that ball..try for the next. Hearing Word say it was the hardest 35 tail he'd ever skied was interesting to hear as he followed my pass. And then @adamhcaldwell -39 in the same tail. Wow..

[mwetskier]

@AdamCord -what ever happened to implication #3 ? for goodness sake don't leave out the most important one.

[AdamCord]

@mwetskier I wouldn't worry about number 3

[Horton]

@AdamCord the current world record holder is the most flowy skier ever