Do we ski at tournaments or trials?

[Horton]

This is a little of a rehash of other threads but my phone rings a lot. In the last 24 hours I have gotten an earful from a few well know skiers about what water ski tournaments should and should not be. I am going to try to condense it all into a few snips.

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Anecdote from skier we will call Lex:

Kid gets involved in BMX. Enters some races. Begs dad to come watch. When dad finally gets around to it he is astounded at how boring it is to watch and how unorganized it is. The dad goes out and buys trophies to give out for the next event. He also gets a Polaroid camera to take pictures of the kids with the trophies. Additionally he hires a DJ to play music during the competition. ½ the music old for the parents and ½ current music for the kids. Dad repeats this every event.

 

The top 3 or 5 kids win trophies and get pictures of themselves with the trophies to take to school the next week. Other kids want a trophy and within a month or so a lot more kids are practicing and competing. The local bike shop is seeing sales up. More and more kids are aspiring to win the trophies.

 

Lex was suggesting that simply chasing a piece of hardware might be a motivator for some skiers – mostly the kids. I am not sure it is the magic bullet to save the sport but it seems like an easy thing to do.

 

I think it would be pretty cool to win a 4 foot tall trophy.

 

Lex also makes the point that we usually don't even know how won a 3 round tournament. What place did any skier some in? I guess you know how you place in any round but beyond that who knows?

 

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One thing I saw at the Centurion BallOfSpray Cash Prize Events is that everyone loves getting a check. I handed out checks this year for as much as $1,000 and as little as $7.41. The winners of the big check are a bit happier but the winners of those little checks are usually pretty darn entertained. It is a trophy either way. People love it. My take away from the Cash Prize events is that it is not rocket surgery to design a water ski event that is far superior to the normal tournament. I challenge every tournament organizer out there to add some sort of game on top of your basic event. DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT!

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A skier we will call “Taco” made me think about the word “Trials”. Water ski tournaments were once competitions. In most of the country they are usually “Trials”. I think most of us already think about it this way but Taco defined it for me. If I am only going to try to get a score for the rankings list then it is a “trial” and not a competition. Most of us agree that a competition sounds more fun than a trial?

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Skier we will call “Alvin” works in the industry. He tells me what I already know. Slalom ski sales have little to do with the size of USAWS membership. Ski sales are up at the same time that USAWS membership continues to shrink. Skiing is fun and standard tournaments are terribly boring.

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All of this makes me think I need reconsider the value of the team concept. Not that it fits with the above talk about trophies but that it is an additional motivator. @JeffSurdej you have me thinking....

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Does anyone know anyone in the trophy business? If so, have them contact me. I have a proposal for them that they cannot reject.

 

[RazorRoss3]

I think teams could be really big, could distribute boat costs across a wider base making then more affordable and the team atmosphere of a college event is great if you could bring that to AWSA

 

No doubt class C tournaments and in my case almost every tournament is a trial. As I've said, 8 haven't seen another M1 skier all year except at an alumni tournament in Iowa and a record in Austin.

 

Definitely agree that even winning one of the small checks at your events is pretty fun, ever since I won in '15 I've been bragging that I've won money skiing. I always follow up with I haven't made any but that was never going to happen.

 

[Horton]

yes

[Horton]

What do I have to do to win THIS

[lpskier]

@Horton "Rocket surgery?"

[wtrskior]

Just got my silver place medal in thr mail from regionals. The kids all get there's and a podium photo at the event. Participation is down in my area and it has zero to do with there ever being a lack of trophies.

 

It is important but hardly a magic bullet to increased participation.

 

I'm surprised there are events where there aren't ribbons/medals/trophies for youth at your events

[6balls]

As a kid I thought ski trophy's were cool. In one of our moves they didn't come with us cuz it wasn't important to me anymore. I'll take a PB or close to it any day over a win with a sub par score. Tough to say but it may be a big deal on the youth side.

[Wish]

Two of the best tournaments I've attended (along with BOS Cash Prize) @OB1 and @Horton hit it out of the park with his tournament. Bib, giant check, big O podium display. That was FUN!! Did NOT feel like a trial. Certainly didn't hurt to have a couple skiers hand my daughter her first trophy at another tourny.. fun for her. Will had here hold it above her head by the way. :) I will skip Reg and Nats for events like this and even pay a little more for them.

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[MISkier]

At some of the tournaments I attend, we have a little side competition to award a trophy to the skier who beats their average by the widest margin. We kind of have it a bit over the top on purpose as a lighthearted way to not take ourselves too seriously. The winner takes the trophy home until the next tournament. Here is a picture when I won it.

 

http://forum.ballofspray.com/utility/cloudfile/uploads/editor/k1/ycec5989x4i6.jpg

 

[dchristman]

Now that's a trophy!

[RichardDoane]

Broho event in June hands a huge trophy to the H2H winner plus inscribes their name on another that lives in the clubhouse. One of these days it's gonna say "ZipZapPaddyWhack"

[Mateo_Vargas]

Sounds like Lex is getting more kids involved so his kids have more kids to beat. He is also hoping that his Polariod stock goes up.

[santangelo]

I agree in the concept of competition vs trials. Most tournament are trials, or what I would call qualifiers where you are trying to achieve a goal for future 'competitive' tournaments or simply trying to gauge your progress under controlled conditions.

 

Ask anyone that has been in a 'competitive' tournament like States, Regionals, or Nationals and has been in a run-off. Those moments stand out as the most fun you can have at a tournament, win or lose. It's more 'me against you' than anything we have in water skiing. It's the same concept as structured head to head formats such as the Big Dawg series which has made it so popular.

 

The point is, there is a structure in place to bring about the competitive environment with a reward at the end. Changing the aggregate of skiers from age based to ability based does not solve this problem alone.

[Mateo_Vargas]

If you are in front of a judge it's a trial.

[LeonL]

Qualifier better suits the situation. As @santangelo said, there's nothing like a runoff. I was in my first runoff this past Regionals and it was great. I had always loved to watch runoffs, and always wanted to be involved, for the fun, and it also means you may well podium.

[dave2ball]

@"Mateo Vargas" sounds like you have a lot of experance with trials. LOL

[Jody_Seal]

I skied 8 event's in 2016 where two of them were competition (Florida State and southern regional championships) the other 6 were nothing more then a trials type event. No medals no podium no nothing except skiing against the list! Even our own Florida State championship ( except juniors) was just another day at the lake as age group winners had to chase down their medals at the club house as there was not a official podium presentation after each event.

For the most part it is a trials type of sport when we do the weekend tournament thing.

 

[Ralph Lee]

Wow!! "Trial skiing" sounds so boring!! No wonder the amateur scene is dwindling, the more I learn about class C tournaments the less I am interested to start competing. Unless your skiing to be ranked in the top 100 or so, you should be skiing to win some kind something!! Anything that says "I won"

[Jody_Seal]

If one goes to the poll currently running on this subject one will find majority are about scoring against them selves as a priority and competition against others a secondary.

Pretty much sums up the current mind set that I see at the events I go to and these are Class c on up to the class REL level. The second in the poll is the skier that wants true ability based competition and a true "Tournament" at the weekend events. One issue is that we run one set of rules with the "tournament" ideology even when the majority have the Trials / self improvement ideology in their participation of the sport.

 

We truly are at a Cross roads in ideology and the sports implementation at the competition level. Currently at the AWSA Board level there is much talk about what to do with the National championship or the lack of a site for the 2017 season. lots of constructive E-mails being passed but for the most part of Elitist direction and not considering the lack of membership growth in the discussions.

 

The Winter State, Regional and National meetings are soon upon us. Please contact your counsel person or attend these meetings and participate in these conversations, share your thoughts and concerns.

 

[Wish]

One of my favorites, A plaque lazer engraved in 1990. Cannot be all that expensive to do this these days. Looks even better in person. Anyone remember the Novice devision that was ability based?. Was a BIG deal to ski out of Novice and into regular age based competition. Never understood why that was abolished. The newbie always had a chance. Then when they got good enough and set a bench mark predefined score, they were bumped into age devisions. And by then, could possibly be competitive by age.

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[ForrestGump]

When is the last time your lake had a new skier that wasn't somehow connected to skiing show up at your tournament? We had 4 new racers at our BMX track today that signed up on site for USA BMX memberships. 3 of them walked away with trophies. That makes over 20 new members we've signed up in the last 6 weeks. How many lakes have signed up 20 new memberships in a year, even? Hell, even I won my class today and treated myself to a couple of fat margaritas to celebrate.

 

Waterskiing has an identity crisis. I think Horton is asking a valid question here. The results of Horton's poll on tournaments suprised me. There's a considerable contingent which are fine with tournaments being trials type events.

 

 

[Ralph Lee]

@BoneHead 20 new members in one year may cause an uprising at the lake I ski...

[ForrestGump]

And that right there is the crux of the problem. People can't complain about skiing losing membership when they're not willing to accept new membership.

[Texas6]

I'd be curious wha the breakdown in fall off is between three event versus the pure slalom competitor.

[Jody_Seal]

@Texas6

I can shed some light:

Slalom single event members of AWSA make up over 60% of total membership (probably closer to 70%) .

At the 2016 US Nationals ( And by the way probably the best Nat's I have attended ever)

there were just shy of 600 entry's. Nearly Half of those entry's were Slalom single event skier's.

Of the 2016 national qualified overall or multiple event skiers nearly or over 60% attended the Nationals.

Of the 2016 National qualified Single event slalom skiers less then 30% attended the national event.

These numbers are a little loose but with out going into my e-mail and pulling them up they are close.

[Texas6]

Good data @Jody_Seal thank you! How about the fall off in memberships in general? Roughly? Or asked differently, of the new memberships, how does the three event vs slalom only new membership volume compare? These questions are a bit loaded, although I don't actually know the breakdown, just a hunch.

[Ralph Lee]

@BoneHead when you ride BMX in practice, do you compare your exhilaration, your heart rate, your endorphins to a real race? I've competed in many amateur sports and slalom skiing is the only sport I can go home completely satisfied from a practice set. Above all other things, the number one reason I don't "compete" is I can attain total euphoria from getting into shoreline with only my wife and the birds witnessing.

[Ralph Lee]

Short line

[ForrestGump]

Ralph Lee, that's actually awesome. I get what you're saying. But this discussion is about tournaments and competition. If you can be completely satisfed in that way, awesome! That actually is a hell of a lot cheaper and easier! lol.

 

And the answer is, I'm completely jazzed when I get something new on the track in practice. Friday I took 20 shots at the first jump at this track before I finally got it. And when I did, I could repeat it. Then yesterday I went to a new track that has a very similar jump and was able to cleanly take it like at my training track. It was way cool for a nationally ranked teenager to tell me "You're getting pretty fast for an old guy." lol. But still, it was even more awesome to go out and win my race class, leading from the time the gate dropped to when I crossed the finishline.

[Horton]

@Ralph Lee i have the exact opposite experience. Everyday practice is challenging but work. Good practice days are nice. Big tournament scores are the only real payoff.

[Ralph Lee]

@horton Id like to share your enthusiasm for the tournament scene. There's a few of us out there capable of competing that are itching to be drawn in. BOS cash prize, especially if there's a few pros is enticing! Trial skiing is not.

[Texas6]

I commend @Jody_Seal for pushing on behalf of the identity crisis, and all of us who genuinely give a shi@ about the future of this sport. I think competition is part of that, and could definitely be improved. But I believe that the crux of the problem is grounded in the fact that the sport won't let go of the past, and recognize that the current membership, and future members have evolved. I like where Jodi is headed with this, and think that the bifurcation between the two events will shine more brightly on where change and investment is necessary

[Horton]

@Ralph Lee all the talk on this site about tournaments is about the fact that we are failing to draw skiers like yourself in. That is exactly the point.

[RichardDoane]

it's easy to go ride a bmx bike and get good at that type of sport, and considerably harder to excel at short line slalom skiing, so I understand Shane's happiness with his bmx activities, some skiers are just not going to have a positive feeling about doing poorly at a water ski tournament, it takes a pretty thick skin to take the good and bad that comes with tournament skiing

[ntx]

@ZipZapPaddyWhack true but ouch. Shots fired.

[LeonL]

What little I know about BMX doesn't look very easy to me.

[ForrestGump]

Hah. Considering I've shattered a collarbone, ruptured an ACL, and torn a bunch of 3 word tendons in my ankle this year I'm not sure I really agree with that simplistic assessment, Zappy. Honestly, if you take number of hours a week I'm training it adds up to about 400% of what I was doing on the water.

 

But in reality that's neither here nor there. I guess my question is, so you keep tournament skiing the exact same because of a few people? What's the real personal difference in a trials type tournament vs a competitive tournament where you're competing against others? If my pb is 2@38 and manage to run 3@38 I know I'm pretty darn happy regardless of where I placed. Same happiness as if I'd run 3@38 in "today's" tournaments. There are a LOT of ideas that can be taken from other sports. Whether it's bmx, or road cycling, or tennis or wiffle ball. If the status quo is what everyone wants, that's fine. But since these topics keep coming back up, I don't think that's actually the case. I'm one of the people that believe that real competition builds character. You get what you earn. You learn how to win. And you learn how to lose.

 

An eye opening day for me a year or so ago was when people showed up to spectate at a tournament and said "This doesn't make any sense. There's no winner? No trophies?"

[Ralph Lee]

@BoneHead How old are you? I have a feeling you'll be back to competitive waterskiing sooner or later. Over ten years ago I broke my tail bone jumping BMX and that was enough for me... One by one my other hobbies are dying out, but slalom remains strong.

[jcamp]

So what do we want? Everyone gets a trophy? Or nationals ought to be for the best of the best? Seems like we are all over the map on this. I appreciate @JeffSurdej's efforts to try new things, but don't envy him trying to wade through all the disparate opinions.

[Wish]

Wasn't until this thread that I realized why my daughter got so uninthused about tournaments. It's the trail. All it ever amounted to was a number (ranking) on a web site outside of a tournament here and there that actually had trophys for young competitors. She's no slouch. Been competing in soccer, volleyball for a looong time and more recently Olympic Archery. She's one of those blessed with natural athletic talent. She picks up on things quick and is driven competitively...when there is a reason to compete even if it's just for team mates. She went from never touching an Olympic recurve bow to being ranked 7th in the country for high school girls in one short 4 month season. She continue to excel. There is no doubt in my mind she would have gone far in this sport. Archery tournaments have similarities to ours. It's an aaallll day event much of which is sitting idle waiting to shoot, traveling to other sites, need a big areas, done in heat of the day (FL that's rough), it's your score vs others, gear must be tuned and you only get one to three times on the shooting line and the actual shooting part does not last very long. So why her interest? Sounds like a waterski tournament. But it's not. It's set up more like a team sport. Closer to collage ws tournaments. All scores go to teams overall so everyone is a factor and contibutes, individual scores count, head to head format for single shooters and teams of 3, ability based, guys against girls (was fun to watch her smoke guys 2yrs older and 50lbs bigger) and you damn sure get a trophy, medals at the end. Easton Sports set this up at the HS level in hopes of finding and grooming the next US Olympic Archer. They knew 2 thing to make it succeed. It had to be affordable for students/families and it had to be fun...period. They loaned all and I mean all the equipment to the 80+ schools across the country. They set the format of competition up so it reflected success for the archers without the "everybody gets a trophy" crap. They set it up to be fun and competitive. The programs success is measured in numbers. It has quickly grown at her school and the program adds new middle and high school teams (10-20) across the country each year. It has a grass roots feel but is extremely organized with certified coaches and judges. If Easton had gone with an Orlympic style tournament format that's been around forever and relied on the families to cough up the dollars in equipment and others costs, it would have been an epic failior almost before it got started.

 

On a positive note, she just got accepted to Florida Southern and may try out for the waterski team.

I've shown vids to her of competition. Why the new interest? What caught eye her was teams and that you don't have to be crazy good to make a significant impact and contribution to the team, a fun, competitive format and comradery. Much like what she is used to seeing in her archery tournaments. She lost interest cause of the trial style but may have regained interest because of a new format. I do not think she is alone in that thought process as a young athlete.

[RichardDoane]

@Mark_Matis no, we want to be welcoming to all levels of participation by having different types of events designed for that purpose

 

@ntx sorry, no disrespect intended, just the cold, hard truth about what a lesson in frustration management tournament skiing can provide

 

@BoneHead that is an awesome picture

[klindy]

@Ralph Lee Our friend @BoneHead is the rider pictured on the left in the pink helmet.... :smiley:

[Ralph Lee]

@klindy Lol!! That's why I could relate to what he was saying.

[Horton]

Bump

[Horton]