Handle control

[mbabiash]

This picture of CP is incredible. With recent posts about pinning elbows to the vest and keeping the handle close off of the second wake, this pic says it all.

It's hard to tell but he has to be close to approaching the buoy width and he still has the handle close and tight to the body.

 

[RazorRoss3]

Related though is that is only possible if you have skied correctly from the previous buoy to the wake with good body position, handle, and load control. Otherwise it will be impossible to create/maintain that body position off the second wake. CP is who I have been looking at recently for exactly those reasons though, he executes extremely well from buoy to wake and then carries it from wake to buoy.

[6balls]

Awesome pic for SO many technical reasons!

[Wish]

One thing I see him do robotically on each side is he manipulates the handle. Vertical to the water going into 135 and parallel into 246 right before he lets go. Looks intentional but guessing. I've tried it and coached it to a willing ginnie pig. What it does I think is it keeps u on the handle longer as u still have to "do something" with it before u release it. Also sort of aquward to try if you're separated so I feel a bit more urgency to keep the handle close to pull it off. All just opinion but feel something positive when I remember to do it.

[RazorRoss3]

@wish, to some extent do you think that might just be ergonomics? Wondering if it is just what is most ergonomically comfortable given other variables of his reach and handle control, different on both sides because this is not a symmetrical sport. Not doubting that in some way focusing on your handle helps your handle control, I think about where I'm trying to place the handle relative to myself and when I do that my handle control is better and the handle is where I want it to be so a two-fold benefit.

[AdamCord]

@RazorRoss3 @Wish you can do this on shore with the rope tied to something and feel how this move is beneficial. It allows you to rotate your shoulders and hips away from the boat, keeping them in line with the ski, while keeping the handle close to your hips. When done right you will be more connected before the release, and when you do release, your trajectory will be outbound rather than parallel with the boat.

 

Trust me, go grab a handle and try it, you'll see what I mean.

[RazorRoss3]

I'm heading out to the lake today, I'll have to throw my handle on the pylon and see what it feels like. Right now what I think about as I'm releasing is to "place" the handle forward of myself.

[lakeaustinskier]

@Wish I've also experimented with rotating the handle into the turns. If you look at Regina she also seems to rotate the handle (mostly 1,3,5). Personally I believe the physical act of rotating the handle does absolutely nothing - but yet - when I rotate the handle it somehow reminds my brain to maintain my hips going into the ball (and not hunch over). @AdamCord is this what you mean? I hope I haven't opened up a rabbit hole here - just curious.

[Wish]

@RazorRoss3 perhaps but CPs just seems to me more intentional and robotic then others. Where I think it can help even outside of what Adam is saying is that if a given skier is giving up the line to soon, having them "do something" (what Adam suggests as the "do") will keep them on the handle longer and keep themselves up against the handle right before the release. Just telling someone to keep the handle longer or to not give it up so soon can be to ambiguous and it can get over done or under done. It takes a split second to get the handle "there". And a split second is all that is probably needed to stay on the handle long enough. If giving up the handle to soon is not a problem then my reasoning is moot. Adam's reasoning on the other hand makes me never want to forget to do this. And at 38 where I struggle into 135 getting wide enough, this may be the ticket.

[ColeGiacopuzzi]

Building on what @AdamCord I agree It definitely allows us to move our shoulders and hips in a more outbound direction all the way until we finally release the handle. I don't usually post photos of myself but @Horton took a sequence of great photos last year at the CA pro am that I think really help magnify this.

 

 

 

 

 

[skinut]

@mbabiash that picture says to me that you need to charge your phone.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@AdamCord are you refering to keeping the handle vertical coming into the strongside turn and horizontal coming into the offside or simply drawing back with the outside arm? CP's motion in that pic looks nearly like drawing a bow.

 

The reason I ask about horizontal and vertical is that I have a chronic elbow injury that forces me to hold the handle backwards (RFF, rt hand on top). So is the side for H vs V dictated by foot forward or hand on top, or is the "drawback" motion really the key?

[mwetskier]

the op's photo tells *me* that cp had been advancing his left hip forward during his approach to the ball resulting in his left arm retracting in what looks like a biceps curl while his right arm wrapped further and further around his torso as it carried most of the rope's outbound tension. Then right about the time this pic was snapped, in order to continue advancing his left hip and open up his shoulders, he had begun releasing the handle with his right hand and was starting to reach with his left.

 

a tiny fraction of a second after this picture was taken his right hand would have been completely off handle and his left arm would have been reaching forward as his ski cast out toward the apex of the turn. anyway, that's what i see... but there's the distinct possibility i could be wrong.

[Horton]

@ColeGiacopuzzi I make you look good

[AdamCord]

@Bruce_Butterfield This move does two things at once. It lets you keep your outside arm/shoulder loaded while keeping your hips/shoulders in line with the ski. There are lots of ways you can think about it or visualize it while you're skiing. As @mwetskier noted he's also advancing his left hip forward, which is the same thing. Whatever helps you picture it in your mind and do it on the water.

 

Regardless of how your hands are positioned, your hips and shoulders need to be rotating away from the boat at this point so that you have a mechanical way to stay connected. If your body is facing the boat, the handle will get pulled off your body, there's no way around it. If you are rotated away from the boat, like @CParrish43, even when your outside arm is straight and heavily loaded, the handle is still pinned to your hip. @mwetskier described it perfectly "his right arm wrapped further and further around his torso as it carried most of the rope's outbound tension." This is how you stay "Mechanically" connected without needing to be superman.

 

The important thing is to put yourself in a position to 1) stay as connected as possible (handle close to COM) all the way up until the outside hand release and 2) have your body positioned so that it can move out to apex once you do release the handle, as opposed to running parallel with the boat.

[Gloersen]

apparently methodical, but definitely honed into muscle memory routine.

the superb results of that onside turn (and throughout) is obvious!

https://youtu.be/abuwVsfqeCo?t=1m15s

[Than_Bogan]

I'm trying to incorporate this right now, actually. @AdamCord explained it to me at the December Denali Summit, but I'm just now rounding into the ski condition that allows me to actually think about anything technical!

 

Question: This is mainly useful at the end of your offside pull and into the onside turn, correct?

 

Or is that just how it applies to me, since my offside preturn is (relatively) good whereas my onside preturn is hideous (but a LOT better when I do this handle rotation thing!)

[Booze]

@Than_Bogan - various (worthy) details have been mentioned here. To be clear, what is "it" or "this"?

 

If we're talking about handle alignment, at what point(s) should it go vertical on strongside and horizontal on offside? All the way through turn?

 

[Than_Bogan]

By "this" I mean the intentional rotation of the handle to upright after crossing the wakes.

[Booze]

@AdamCord - can you elaborate on what "this move" is?

 

Currently I approach my onside with handle vertical and it stays that way until I hook up for the lean out of the buoy. (still probably pre-releasing though)

But I approach my offside with the handle horizontal, release and let it go vertical, and through turn rotate it back to almost horizontal.

 

Thanks

 

[BlueSki]

I am curious if the handle alignment is a consequence of good handle control and human physiology or a refined detail that supports good handle control.

[RazorRoss3]

@BlueSki, the same thought has crossed my mind and I think there is likely a little of both. Good handle control likely causes this to happen to a certain extent just based on ergonomics of both the release and the reconnection after the turn but maybe that is only subtle. Then as said above, when you think about doing a "something" with the handle it can help with handle control so it is possible that they exaggerate that same motion to accomplish that goal. Put together both would feed off of each other, good handle control tends to lead to handle rotation, focus on handle rotation tends to lead to good handle control and so on.

[Wish]

@AdamCord correct me if I'm wrong but along these lines you were giving me some advice with this a while back. Something like...you can get away without the hip alignment to the ski (rotating away from boat) at 32 off but it becomes more critical 35 and essential at 38 and beyond. Is there a line length one should not try this, longer the 32, or is it something to facter in no matter what line or speed?

[AdamCord]

@Booze in this specific instance the move I'm referring to is the one you can see CP doing in the image above or any video you watch of him. Going into his 1-3 side he very aggressively and purposefully rotates the handle to a vertical position.

 

@Wish You can certainly work on this at any line length, but most people don't learn it until 38 because that's where how well you control the handle/your connection to it is the difference between feeling like you'll never get out of 1 cleanly and running 6 buoys.

 

@BlueSki @RazorRoss3 The really tough thing about this is that it starts long before you come off the 2nd wake. If your ass is dragging behind and your hips are far from the handle as you come through center, you can forget about a little handle rotation making it all better.

[BlueSki]

@AdamCord, good point, it takes more than a little handle move to fix dragon ass.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@BlueSki you earned quote of the day!

[BlueSki]

@Bruce_Butterfield, thank you. I credit my father for the phrase.

[AkBob]

I love the dragon ass term as it fits me perfectly. So.... any tips to fix that? My issue seems to be the worst at the second wake on my onside. Starts at gate. Seems like to little speed and too much load and I crush at the wake. I get away with it thru 32, but 35 doesn't allow that often

[Wish]

@AkBob that's a great question and could probably use its own discussion thread. If handle control turns into a bunch of posts on hips up, the title of this thread is gonna be very confusing. Not to mention your question could get some great responses/advice that no one will be able to find if they are not interested in handle control but need hips advice. Just a thought.

[jipster43]

This is a perfect example of how handle control can be difficult for the dyslexic among us.

[mwetskier]

@jipster43 -are you sure you didn't mean ' lysdexic'?

[cragginshred]

@AdamCord you said most don't learn this till -38,.. is it easier there or just more crucial? This is hard at -28 for me, but likely because like you say I'm dragging my arse through the wakes :(

[AdamCord]

@cragginshred at -28 you need to be focused on getting tall and stacked, and using that position to accelerate. As you start doing that better, the handle control side of it starts to become possible.