Working on 38 and 39

[Horton]

Not sure I will ever really turn 3 ball @ 39 but that is the goal. This week I shot some video (see below) and shared it with some super smart guys. The feedback and conversations afterwards are changing my understanding of slalom. I am confused and excited. One of the biggest and most perplexing things I heard from everyone was that I need to make more speed earlier on my gate. I understand the goal but how to achieve the goal has me perplexed.

 

[Chef23]

Jack Travers told me that to help me at 35. I have no idea how to help you though it wasn't that hard to do at 35.

[Wish]

@Hoton I've seen you on a lot of skis in the vids u post. Never seen one you've ridden turn and take off like that only to be left with a long and controlled ride to the ball. Wow. Consider getting rid of the 1 handed gate. I think that really delays what could be a slightly earlier pick up and faster ski speed prier to picking up the line. Just my 2cents.

[gregy]

I'm interested in this myself. I'm a few loops behind you. But when ever I start working on a new loop I tend to pull past the wakes. My rationalization is that since I'm starting from a narrower position I need to start the work area sooner so I will end up with the same timing as the previous line length. It's something that has frustrated me and I'm not sure what the answer is. I was at a Radar demo and Brooks mention trying to level my shoulders more to help release the ski for edge change.

[6balls]

The dudes u talked to are smarter than me...so no advice. Best I’ve seen you. Really have taken a next step. You were a 35 skier that on a good day ran 38. Now smoking 38s.

Personally it appears your stack and leverage creating efficient speed are better than ever. I love your position behind the boat and the explosion to outbound...like u are shot from a cannon.

Bro Jim ran 39...u can too!

[Drago]

@Horton , I concur with the gate comments. You're up on the boat more on your 38 gate than your 39. Even then, notice your later edge change into 1,3. The pull should feel like 2-3.

Get up there! Scare yourself a bit.

 

[brettmainer]

Your 35 and 38 look great. You need more juice through the gates at 39. You can achieve this by:

1. Getting wider and doing everything else the same.

2. Same width, but faster, more aggressive turn in.

3. Pull longer.

I recommend #2. Watch Nate at 39 or 41 and I believe that is what you will see.

 

It also helps to believe you will run the pass. Regina or Badal would have run that pass with an identical 1-2. Just as you can run 35 with any sort of 1-2; you know what to do, don’t panic, and do it.

[EricKelley]

You are coming off the handle slightly too early at 39. Remember you can not "backside" the buoy nearly as much. It will require you to finish your turn further down course than the longer line lengths and that is okay as long as you establish good angle and maintain correct body position. At 34 I think 39 is all about having a tough mental attitude. You have the tools to do it, keep at it.

[dave2ball]

Looks like your speed is good. Try goimg earlier and try missing the gates. Create more space

 

 

 

[The_MS]

Earlier with TWO hands on the handle. You dont get enough jump into the pull to the gate with your 1 handed style. Look at other successful 1 handed gate people and you will see them make a move outward (a Jump, fling, cool looking move or what ever you want to call it) and then grab the handle and head to the gate. Yours looks like a wimpy hand shake. If you stick with that stupid 1 handed gate, then make a move out and get some direction with some force back in towards the gates. I used to do the same thing until Jay Bennett asked me how in the hell I could run 38 with that crap gate.

[Horton]

@MS I hear your hate for my gate. I am not convinced that switching to a two hand gate would not be harder than fixing my one hand gate. Feddie Winter watched me this spring and his exact words about my one hand gate were "it is strange but it works".

 

What I am working on besides being wider is to make more speed faster. How to do this is the odd part. I am leaving my sternum down course and trying to bring my feet under the rope faster. Doing this at 38 is making my one balls way better.

 

Funny I wanted to work on 39 gates the other day so I ran 32 and 35 and then went to 39. I did manage to get around 3 once but 6 or so tries at 39 was a brutal beating. Lesson learned I am back to working mostly at 38.

[JackQ]

You may get a thousand opinions, but I have found that less is more as you go to 38 and 39. I think your turn in transition from glide to pull is too quick and abrupt.

 

I aim for a smooth rotation into the pull and strive to continue to gain speed until edge change. I try to load less at 38 than 35, and even less at 39 because as the rope becomes shorter it results in more load. You want space, not width.

 

 

[markn]

Horton..and you thought you would never turn 3 ball...congrats! If you made it around 3, you can make it around 4!! Pretty darn goo skiing if you asked me.

Regarding the gates, I tend to agree with you. Stick with what you know and possibly modify it if needed. Go back and watch Andy Mapple's slalom video...he runs 39 1/2 off starting in the white wash seeing "if I can make something out of nothing". Of course he is the all time GOAT. He always claimed gates are not "the be all and end all".

This season, I am having more luck at 39 than I ever have. What I have noticed is you do need to create more speed through the gates and outbound to 1 ball and you cannot (at least I cannot) turn at the buoy. In the past, if I was late out of 1, figured I was done. In reality, even if down course, turn the ski hard and you will have sufficient angle to get to the next buoy. I feel later and further down course than 38, but getting used to it and not giving up thinking I am too late. I have been getting some coaching and for the gates, have been told to establish angle with an early, progressive turn in, then go hard. My problem has always been to go too hard too soon for the gates.

The more you attempt 39, the better you will get.

On a side note, watching you on that Denali, makes me want to give one a try. It is working well for you. Nice skiing.

 

[Horton]

@JackQ based on the open skiers I've talked to about this you're either 100% right or 100% wrong :-)

 

That is the puzzle. How to achieve maximum speed with minimal load by the first wake.

[AdamCord]

@Horton think about it like this:

 

If you started the course at 2 ball instead of the gate, what would you be looking to feel on the back side of 2 ball? You’d want a tight line, and you’d be looking to build angle early so that you can build load under your feet and create speed from a wide point.

 

In order to do that you’d need to pull out early and hard, to make sure you can get high on the boat very early. That gives you the chance to be dropping back on the boat when you reach the buoy, keeping the line very tight and letting you start your pull from a wide point. If you have a tight line, are in good position, and you have load under your feet, then you are in position to make a strong and early pull into center.

 

This gives you the chance to build speed early and start to stand up out of your pull before the centerline, which will keep you connected on the way out to 1 ball. This gives you the ability to be again on the “downswing” as you come through 1 ball.

 

Conversely what I see on your gate is you get juuuuust wide enough, then turn in before you have started the downswing and therefore without a tight line. Then you build load and speed late which separates you and makes you narrow on the way to 1 ball.

 

Ski looks great though

[The_MS]

I hear you @Horton. I would at least try to look at what the 1 handed gate experts do. I would try to get outwards a bit and then turn towards 1 ball.

[Horton]

@ms oddly insightful

[The_MS]

If your at 3 ball your doing something right.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Ok, who the heck has been hacking @MS's account and posting under his name? Whoever it is seems like a sober, rational adult that actually knows something about skiing. @thager please go check his basement for pods. And HURRY!

 

@Horton you are getting some good advice, especially with ditching the 1 hand gate and getting wider on the 39 gate. I think you are in for disappointment if you try to solve your puzzle of "How to achieve maximum speed with minimal load by the first wake". You can't run shortline with "minimal load".

 

Yes, you can overload between the buoy and wake, and give it back from the wake to the buoy (my worst habit), but "less effort" will not generate the speed you need for short lines. What you want is the maximum load that you can maintain from the buoy to the wake, and HOLD from the wake to the buoy. That is the basis for keeping the body upright and handle in close all the way out to the buoy line.

 

The one thing I see consistently is that the handle separates from your hips immediately after the second wake going into 2/4. On 1/3 you hold it in closer longer and your reach is reasonably slow and controlled. That's why you are turning 1/3 tight and consistently downcourse on 2/4. The ridiculous strong side turns on that ski are letting you get away with it.

 

To put more it in terms of your puzzle, it looks like you are giving it a 10 out of 1/3, so you give it back and end up with a 7 from the wakes into 2/4. Try giving it a 9 out of 1/3 and holding that 9 from the wakes to 2/4.

[thager]

@Horton is skiing too well and too often for his age. I think he needs another child! People please stop helping him!!!!!

[The_MS]

I said everything that @AdamCord said in a shorter version.

[Drago]

Me too

[matthewbrown]

There is nothing wrong with the gate width. The problem is in the coast for the gates and the balance point on the turn in. Your center of mass is well behind your feet on the gate coast and as a result on the turn in for the gates your ski comes underneath the line first, ahead of your shoulders and feet. This creates a slower loaded position.

 

Think about it, you start to lean toward the wakes but then you stop that lean to allow the ski to catch up. That costs you time and demands that you hold an overloaded position. Basically, you are waiting until the ski comes completely underneath the line to begin your acceleration and this is what’s costing you everything.

 

Stand taller on the glide, keep your hips rotated out more toward the shore and when you commit to the turn, your upper and lower body must move toward the wakes as quickly as possible leading your feet and ski. The ski should not come between you and the boat until you are at least at the first wake, you are doing this from the very beginning.

 

Getting as wide as possible does nothing to alleviate this problem, the problem of being able to stay inside the turning arc with your body for as long as possible, that’s how you create the speed you need without the overload which undoubtedly is popping you to the inside of the line into 1 ball. One only needs to look at a Nate Smith gate to see this happening.

[RichardDoane]

I was able to ride in the boat this past weekend while David was playing with his ski

 

[RichardDoane]

[RichardDoane]

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@RichardDoane a skier’s strength to weight ratio does incredible things to buoy count.

[RichardDoane]

@horton file size was too large to email, so posted to youtube instead and embeded

 

David's B-day was Saturday, so he celebrated by running into -41 ! Gordon's front yard at the Hilltop Lake is the best place to have a tournament/birthday party IMO

[disland]

@RichardDoane Really enjoyed skiing there and cant wait to come back

[6balls]

@horton On your 38 video...out of 2 and 4 look at how much juice you are giving it at the first wash. Now look at your gate at the first wash. Lots more early intensity out of 2 and 4 vs. the gate. Don't know how much that makes sense or helps.

 

Putting that together with @matthewbrown comments...hmm.

[Lars]

This entire conversation is way above me, I have nothing to add beyond this...

 

 

[Than_Bogan]

@Lars For about a minute ... until you got a taste of the beast that is -38 :).

[RichardDoane]

@disland hope to see you @ BOS Cash Prize Bell Acqua ?

[Horton]

At some point we are all going to shut up and just listen to @matthewbrown

[Horton]

I went out today and tried to put into practice some of this....

 

 

[Horton]

It is good news and bad news. The good news is that I think I know what I need to change. The bad news is that I have not made much progress changing my gate.

 

 

 

[lpskier]

Did you listen to ZO in your video? To me, it sounds like the motor is in the acceleration phase almost all the way out to the buoy.

[Horton]

@lpskier IDK. Boat feels great.

[lpskier]

At the risk of being off topic, what was the knowledge that either preceded or resulted from (or both) your breakthrough at 38?

[Horton]

@lpskier This Thread is in a section of the Forum that is limited to tournaments skiers. I really want to keep it on topic. This is intended to be a technical conversation.

[AdamCord]

@Horton your gate is better. You are now reaching and turning with a tight line and building load under your feet from a wider point while staying ahead of the ski. That is doing the job of getting the handle rotating around the pylon faster into the wakes. Could you do a better job of it? Sure, if you got a little higher on the boat you could get that from even wider/higher.

 

But that's not really what's holding you back now. In reference to your other thread, you are possibly "edging" too long on the way to 1 ball. I'm not totally opposed to a skier using their hips to roll the ski over further into the 1st wake on their onside pull. The body mechanics of one foot in front of the other make this fairly natural. But what I am 100% opposed to is trying to hold "direction" off the 2nd wake. For you, when you get into that edging position you are way too slow to come out of it, so you end up skiing yourself away from the handle and swinging up on the boat too slow and late.

 

If you watch the absolute top skiers (Mapple, Nate, CP, etc.) they all do basically the same thing. They come out of angle as early as possible. Keep in mind that that's a different concept than "edge change". Mapple had a somewhat late edge change compared to Nate, but freeze frame either one of them at the 2nd white wash and look at where the ski is pointing. It's pointing at the buoy or sometimes inside of the buoy. They are starting the ski rotation super early, and allowing themselves to stay strong against the line while skiing with the handle and not away from it.

 

So what can you do to achieve something similar? In my opinion the easiest and most effective way to do it is to try and stand TALL into the centerline. That does a couple things. It rolls the ski off edge, which lets it start rotating toward the centerline (yaw) instead of to the shoreline. It also drives your hips up to the handle right when you are going to reach max load, and you need to be in position to stay connected with the rope. (that's also when ZO will be gassing you the hardest)

 

From that tall position you can continue to lean on the rope with both arms/hands while the ski starts it's rotation, or starts the turn, underneath you. A big part of why those three guys I mentioned above have the smoothest turns is because the ski is already rotated a lot when they reach the buoy, so the finish of the turn is simple and not a 180 degree change of direction.

 

tldr: Stand up into centerline and point the ski down the lake and not at the beach.

 

 

 

[Deanoski]

@AdamCord thank you for your post and pic very insightful

[6balls]

@AdamCord great pic to illustrate your point. That same pic from the boat is not as obvious.

GUT stuff...get high! So many of us grew up pulling for the beach...trying to create space but in reality creating separation.

[gregy]

I remember seeing a video of Andy discussing 28 vs 38 of different path the ski takes and how the ski needs to be setup differently. What are the differences in setup and how the ski reacts.

[Zman]

@gregy. And.....?

[gregy]

@zmam Asking what are the difference he's taking about. I'm on an 18 Vapor and past 28off I feel like I need to change something and I'm not sure its all me? I was think of this specifically in response to what @adamcord was saying about turning the ski more down course and this is what Andy was showing in the video.