The Promo Boat Paradigm has to change

[unksskis]

Special Edition Promo boats, exclusive or unique options only on promos, there are ways to build the demand and desire for the promo after market, the manufacturers have to be bought in to it.

[The_MS]

The only way to make the old program work is for the Promo boats to be purchased every year in the fall when the promo team needs to sell them. Is it asking to much for them to make a $500 profit or even break even? Everyone loves skiing behind the new boats but nobody buys them.

[6_Buoys]

@dave2ball I do agree that this is probably a little easier on the local level. However, I do think that the mfg's want their product on the big stage and they would figure out how to ensure their boats are there. They still want to see records and great performances behind a tug they have their name on. Regionals and Nationals planning committees will know who in their area has a new boat for "rent". They will have to work a deal with the owner. Maybe not on topic, but should we be looking at this from the local tournament level where the majority of skiing is done or the one week a year of Regionals/Nationals. Is it a 2 part solution?

 

All I'm saying is let the boat owner negotiate what works for them. Not dictate a surcharge on the entry fee, The entry fee will be based on many things, one of which is the boat to be used. The boat owner then has more incentive to advertise the boat and want to sell it. They decide what it's worth to haul it around and give it up for multiple days at Regionals. Not b/c they get a couple extra tournament credits from the mfg.

[Chad_Scott]

@dave2ball is right. There is no way using privately owned boats will work for Nationals and some multi sight regional events. When Nationals is fortunate enough to be at Okeeheelee then you could potentially be using 4 lakes at one time. I think each manufacturers have to provide 5-6 boats for Nationals. @6_Buoys while it sounds easy I can tell you. Getting that many boats to Nationals is not that easy for these manufacturers and would be much more difficult for individuals. The boats have to be there the weekend before the Nationals starts and stay till near the end. While I don’t know the answer I do not believe completely relying on private owners to pick up the slack is not the answer. People get pretty worked up about hours on a boat as it is

[6balls]

In a very low volume market, do you need a big 3? What if it was a big 2, or a big 1? Would it be better or worse as a manufacturer? Would it be better or worse for skiing? Thought experiment here as to what if one of the three decided for business purposes to focus solely on wake/surf/recreation?

 

[dave2ball]

@6_Buoys I’m not too sure if you have ever been to a nationals or regionals. But at Okeeheelee you need at least 6 boats and 7 if possible 2 per lake and 1 back up. I cannot imagine having 7 different year boats of one MFG pulling slalom or jump which presents another problem because the size of the motor that is now required.

I can’t imagine any boat owner is going to allow 20 or more hrs being put on there boat rained on daily for an agreed amount of money.

For the tournament sponsor it would be a nightmare.

[ScarletArrow]

@Chad_Scott technically speaking, until CC changed their program last year, are not the boats "privately owned"? When I had a short stint on the CC promo program, I bought the boat with my own $$ and had the title. The only difference is that I got a specified amount of credits from CC that I could apply toward my next purchase. Wouldn't it be better to let me charge my own fee for use in a tournament? Local tournament - $250 for the day plus free entry. Regional tournament $250 / day plus free entry plus gas for towing. Etc.

[dave2ball]

@ScarletArrow you are right. But the boat was sold at a great

Y reduced price for that time and part of the deal is were required to go to tournaments as you know and then turned the boat over at a discounted price with low hours.

CC changed there program because the cost of the boat. I believe it was the only way to keep their program going. MC has also changed over to a similar program and Malibu is unchanged.

[Chad_Scott]

I was referring to a privately owned non ?romo boat. Do away with the promo program as suggested then the price of the boats will increase because they won’t be sold at promo pricing. So if a non promo person pays retail for the boat do you think they will all want to use them for tournaments. The reason boats don’t flip now is because people don’t want to pay for new boats each year. Obviously my opinion but I think the manufacturers need to stay in the game and we as an organization and as tournament organizers can do something for the promo guys willing to invest their money and provide the boats for events.

[6_Buoys]

@dave2ball in the last 10 years my home site has hosted Regionals 3 times and the Junior Open once. I am an appointed judge for this year’s Regionals as I have been in the past. I even managed to win my division a couple summers ago. So yes, I have been to the big events. I don’t ski Nationals by choice, the reasons could be another whole thread.

 

I certainly don’t have all the answers, was simply trying to look from a different angle. In my area we have one promo boat and that guy makes a tremendous effort to get to many tournaments during the season. We have a couple of sites that have newish boats and that’s what they use. LOCs are already adjusting to this new normal. In the end, skiers want to ski. Not having the newest boat isn’t going to stop the skiing.

[Broussard]

@6_Buoys New York doesn't exactly have the biggest skiing population, hence fewer promo boats. Just because "not having the newest boats isn't going to stop the skiing" doesn't mean that it's the optimal solution. Like others said it could be extremely detrimental to the future of the 3 event tow boat.

[Horton]

below is an official proposal that is being circulated.

 

A Local Organizing Committee (LOC) must reimburse a boat owner(s) for use of a boat for any event (excluding Regionals and Nationals), on an hourly basis. This provision includes promo boats, individually owned boats, club owned boats, etc. The recommended reimbursement rate is $25 (Twenty-Five dollars) per hour of use, recorded from the boat’s hour meter. The boat must be an Approved Tournament Towboat with valid insurance as required by USAWSWS. The boat owner has the option to decline reimbursement and/or make other arrangements.

 

All payments from the LOC to the boat owner are reimbursement for costs incurred and not compensation. Reimbursement by the LOC to the boat owner is separate from any consideration a towboat owner may receive from a manufacturer.

[The_MS]

You can kiss class C events goodbye or maybe 100-125 for 3 rounds depending where you live.

 

[jcamp]

@Horton, by whom? Where?

[brettmainer]

I like it.

@The_MS, $25 per hour equates to $2.50 per tournament tow. That is not going to kill tournaments. Add $3 per ride to the entry fee and move along. Seems fair to me.

[Horton]

@The_MS okay how do you expect to provide boats at a time when the factories are pulling back?

 

I drop $200 every time I go to the grocery store. A tank of boat gas cost me $80 and you're going to cry about another few dollars per tournament ride?

[Horton]

@brettmag I think it's the right idea but the dollar amount is wrong. The cost per ride needs to equate to at least the $ depreciation per hour.

[Horton]

https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/comment/365350

[skiinxs]

That would likely cover gas on the tow vehicle to get to most tournaments, but not depreciation on the tow vehicle for the miles.....

[6balls]

Gotta be a way to cover these promo guys and it costs money. Means tourneys more expensive but all I see at tourneys are nice trucks and travel trailers, $2000 skis and all the new gear...people are doing ok and if that means an extra $20/tourney that would be the least of my concerns and the right thing to do for promo boat owners and to support the 3-event portion of our big 3 manufacturers.

 

[skibug]

Gotta pay if you wanna play!! It is basic economics at play and it is being directly represented by the position of the boat manufacturers. Unfortunately, this sport takes a lot of disposable income to participate and sustain, and tournaments are almost the direct culprit for this....that and the exclusivity of being held on private ponds. There is no money to be made in this sport, that ship has sailed. So, if you want tournaments, cough up the $$$, make it an equal share proposition for all competitors (pros, armatures, judges, drivers, etc.) to cover all costs of the LOC. @6balls is correct, I don't see a lot of paupers at tournaments.

[The_MS]

I will pay whatever is needed to attend events that I like to go to, but this melts in to other issues about growing the sport and keeping M & W 1-2 skiers engaged in skiing after they break from mom and dad paying for everything. Just think if you have mom, dad , Dad Jr and Mom Jr wanting to ski a local 6 round weekend C. Add it up at 100 per person. Wake boarding and surfing looks pretty inviting

 

[jcamp]

@skibug the paupers have already been forced out ...

[Horton]

@6balls

After reading your post I feel like we can all just drop the mic and walk away.

 

 

 

I am also going to rescind your triple Panda award

 

[unksskis]

Agree it is necessary to sustain the promo programs, however we're already to the point of using skier/owner boats at Class C tournaments to get more people out skiing. As said, this cost increase will impact the grass roots initiatives, and getting more people to attend local tournaments, but definitely understand the necessity in paying Promo's.

[klindy]

@Horton @6balls & @skibug are correct, if you want to play, you have to pay. And, like a lot of other recreational activities, it can get expensive to be part of the game.

 

So lets say paying an extra $20-25 per tournament is doable and pretty much doesn't drive anyone away from the sport. It also won't add anyone and it certainly isn't likely to add any additional promo boat owners to the mix. If that's true, then we still haven't solved the problem.

 

The boat manufacturers still aren't selling any more boats. Promo owners aren't willing to pay more to be part of the program so the manufacturers will still say the programs are too expensive. The boat tests still don't develop any kind of exclusivity or value for the boat manufacturers. And as skiers we all bitch more about how expensive tournaments are. Not exactly an idea plan if you ask me.....

 

What if "the fee" (whatever that is) is paid directly to the boat manufacturers designed to LOWER the cost of the boat to the promo owners?

Structure the boat tests (if needed) to directly benefit the boat manufacturers rather than simply be a line item on the USAWSWS income statement.

Go back to the program where the more pulls the boats have during the year, the more pulls they have at Regionals/Nationals.

Develop a 'promo boat owners insurance' program where USAWSWS negotiates a decent insurance program available to promo owners at no (or little) cost.

Adjust the rules to allow ANY previously approved boat with ZO to be eligible to use at a tournament (like IWWF does now).

 

What needs to happen today is we need a full list of all the promo owners and their locations. Put these on a map and let's see where the are all located to identify gaps and other areas of concern.

 

We clearly have an issue with the shrinking promo boat program but what we need are thing that have a chance to maintain or help the program. With some promo boats being towed for hundreds of miles and others never leaving the lake they live on and other private boats being used increasingly. I don't fully understand how this will make a difference to the promo programs longer term.

 

[Horton]

@unksskis if your local skiers will use personal boats for tournaments then you have your own solution and I support it. For the people who EXPECT new boats the paradigm must change.

[skibug]

That is our sport.....entitlement and elitists.

[ski6jones]

This thread is a realization that tournaments have been subsidized by boat manufacturers and promo participants in years passed, and that calculus is changing. Pay as you go.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

@klindy good thoughts, I'll add some comments:

 

What if "the fee" (whatever that is) is paid directly to the boat manufacturers designed to LOWER the cost of the boat to the promo owners? That strikes me as a bad idea. Another black hole of tax/fee that will only increase with no way to measure benefit. Much better to pay the promo owner directly.

 

Structure the boat tests (if needed) to directly benefit the boat manufacturers rather than simply be a line item on the USAWSWS income statement. By what rationale should testing boats for acceptable tournament use be an income stream? That only serves the incestious relationship. Any "testing fee" should be nominal and only contribute to partially offsetting the actual test cost, not generating income. For those who don't know, the testing fee per boat/configuration was $10k many years ago and I don't know what it is today.

 

Go back to the program where the more pulls the boats have during the year, the more pulls they have at Regionals/Nationals. Great idea. Simple and easy to implement.

 

Develop a 'promo boat owners insurance' program where USAWSWS negotiates a decent insurance program available to promo owners at no (or little) cost. Insurance is too often used as an abstract benefit to justify more cost and is useless for all practical purposes. Unless someone does something really stupid, personal, lake or other insurance is more than adequate.

 

Adjust the rules to allow ANY previously approved boat with ZO to be eligible to use at a tournament (like IWWF does now). HELL YEAH!

 

Back in the dark ages, the ski boat companies were run by skiers who loved the sport and their products. There was personal motivation to build a better ski boat and have it benefit the tournament skiers. Today the ski boat companies are run by a board that is driven by the bottom line. For better or worse, that's the reality. If the promo program doesn't benefit the bottom line, we, the skiers need to have alternatives and not be tied at the hip to promo boats.

[dbutcher]

@Bruce_Butterfield Well said. I agree with everything you said except the insurance paragraph. I don't agree with @klindy on insurance either. Insurance will never be free or low cost. Insurance, particularly liability insurance, is very important - in fact critical - to every boat owner/operator. While accidents/injuries are pretty rare in competitive water skiing, when one happens it could be catastrophic in human suffering and financially to the injured party and to the boat driver who caused it (if legally liable). Wrongful death claims often exceed $1,000,000 in value. How much do you want to gamble/risk?

[Horton]

@klindy

What if "the fee" (whatever that is) is paid directly to the boat manufacturers designed to LOWER the cost of the boat to the promo owners?

 

This is too complicated and I would bet money the factories would not want to sign onto this process. It would be a HOT MESS.

 

If you want to make the factories happy about ski boats find a way to fund promo tournament boats without discounting the boats. Trust me, the accounting department just wants to see boats leave the building at full wholesale. If we reimburse new boat owners enough to cover depreciation a few guys in each area will get a new boat every year.

 

I am not saying that in the future there would not be some sort of promo program and or that promo guys would pay full price but that most to the financial burden would be covered with event fees. It is that or only old boat at most events.

 

[dave2ball]

I was on a promo team for many years. The cost of taking a boat to a tournament is not cheap. The extra gas for travel the additional insurance maintenance These cost all add up in time. I was lucky in the fact I really didn’t have to travel far due to many boats out the there. Now it is a very different story. The promo deals are not what they were more tournaments and less boats. This idea is not bad if down right. As for older boats being used an the condition and speed control that is between USA waterski LOC and the owner as far as requirements.

[The_MS]

If it comes down to using personal boats, we would probably open our events up only to club members. Tough to find owners that want to rack up hours on their boats 4-5 time a year

[disland]

How to deal with Collegiate is a problem that needs to be thought thru. Everyone says that were growth comes from. If there are no promo boats how will Collegiate get pulled

[Horton]

@disland team boats and or patrons of the sport.

[MattP]

@disland in my experience in my area the promo owners would more than likely waive this fee for college tournaments.

[ALPJr]

Helping support the people who bring the boats, new or older-approved makes sense to me. Not to split hairs but in the East region with mostly 2 or 3 round class C’s its seems that 4 or 5 bucks extra per round would be in the ballpark. 30 skiers x 3 rounds = ~$360 to $450.

[Broussard]

@klindy

Go back to the program where the more pulls the boats have during the year, the more pulls they have at Regionals/Nationals.

If "closed" tournaments were cataloged correctly this could work, unfortunately with only three manufacturers juggling boats at Nationals is difficult especially when certain manufacturers try to send as few towboats as possible to support the event.

[6_Buoys]

@Broussard easy fix, make Nationals a truly elite event and not so many weekend warriors. Fewer skiers, fewer pulls, fewer boats. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know nationals is another topic. But like local class C or collegiate tournaments, it all has an impact on boat decisions going forward.

[Broussard]

@6_Buoys This year Nationals was on a 2 lake site. Even if you took away 200 skiers, it would require the same amount of boats to run the event efficiently. The event would simply take less days to run.

 

We have run Collegiate Nationals 12+ times on the same site.

[dave2ball]

@Broussard @6_Buoy the nationals are what keeps USA waterski afloat during the year. To see a reduction in skiers due to elite status would probably not happen. The entry fee would have to be increased plus travel expenses would probably drive down the number of skiers.

[Horton]

seriously guys the discussion of Nationals is a completely different thread

[RichardDoane]

most boat owners don't mind using their personal boat for a tournament, as long as they are financially compensated, and the boat is well cared for. The simple solution is the best, structure entry fees to cover all the expenses of the event, which will include sanction fees, boat use, fuel, misc. expenses, etc. etc. It is easy to look at previous tournament costs to financially plan for next seasons events, and determine the entry fee. Most lake owners and LOC's are not in it for the money, they just like the events to happen so their members (and other area skiers) have a good time.

[buechsr]

As one who has never having been a promo owner, but one who has bought many new boats with the same concern, it appears to me the fundamental tension is (some) promo owners are becoming disincentivized to provide their boats due to higher hours and therefore (perceived) lower resale. Thats kind of always been the case but it's no longer SN 2001s for $15,000. When that keeps promo boat provision away, event organizers are not getting what they need, and manufacturers are not getting the exposure they could (if) promo drivers are "skipping" events to save hours. Thus, the purpose of the whole system collapses.

 

The solution, it seems to me, is not passing the burden onto the market to compensate the promo owners, but should come from the manufacturer. The way to accomplish this (could be) for manufacturers to charge higher prices for their boats but then reward the promo owner FOR higher hours, making up the difference between what would have otherwise been less depreciation. It's nothing "extra" for the manufacturer since they're getting more for the product, but yet ensures they're getting the benefit of the whole purpose of their programs (exposure and rides). For the bean counters, its really kind of a loan, that costs nothing extra to the manufacturer. For example, if a promo price on a new txi is $60,000, Malibu could charge $65,000 and at the end of the year, if the boat has 200 hours, rewards the owner with $5,000. It's the same difference for Malibu. Does the boat have more hours, thus penalizing the owner further on resale? Yes, but that could also be worked out with Malibu. It's just a line item for marketing, and perhaps the best back for their marketing buck in the 3 event boat world....If the boats are getting where they need to be, and getting used.

 

Same could even be accomplished by simply requiring that if someone is part of the promo team with a presumed annual boat, they must hit a certain hour threshold. That may have been the case for many in years past but seems to be an issue now based on what I've read here.

 

Lastly, I realize promo drivers have logistical challenges and financial commitment to gas, weekends, etc. But lets not act like they're getting a raw deal. They're getting new, cutting edge product on the cheap in exchange for contributing to a scene they presumably love. I'm not saying selling boats is always fun, but ordering, unwrapping, and dialing in a new boat makes it worth it.

 

Yes I'm sure this is a naive take, but if manufacturers are not getting the exposure they deserve, the whole purpose has failed.

 

[Horton]

@buechsr

 

 

[dave2ball]

@buechsr the promo boats are given a tournament schedule set by the factory or there coordinator. The factories are pulling back. The factories are looking at the payoff for there investment in these programs. Basically show me the money and sales from our exposure at these events. If sales cannot be tracked back to the events a promo boat pulls or any dealer referrals from the promo owner they why invest in tournament skiing when there marketing money in better ways.

Nautique promo boats go back to there dealer. MC and Malibu are sold private owner or a traditional promo program. A promo person is not in this to loose thousands of dollars when they turn the boat over. A promo boat will only sell for what the market will bare. It is different every year. The days of free boats seem to be over. Like it or not. If you disagree with the situation then join a program and find out first hand what it is like and maybe your opinion will change.

[Jody_Seal]

Read the fine print!

There is no such thing as promo boats anymore!

Good luck getting a "Promo" at your tournament. yea I know AWSA just listed the Official tested towboats for 2021. unless you ski in central Florida or at one of the anointed ski sites more then likely in the next number of years many of you will have to be content with skiing behind other then 3 year old boats in competition.

 

Consider this. a program or data base where a private tournament boat owner can participate in and provide boats for competitions under the current boat usage rules and exceptions and insurance needs.

Basic compensation or on up to what ever the LOC has to offer these private owners and is agreeable with between the two.

Example Bob calls Jody and say's hey there is no "promo" boats available for our class C event. what's it going to take for you to bring your 09 and pull the tournament?

Basic compensation: tow fuel and Entry's maybe a hotel? Whatever!

 

In the past I have taken this scenario to members of the towboat committee. they were aghast that someone could even come up with this program idea... their biggest concern was safety of the event due to age of the boats. and they did not want to investigate in some sort of pre Tournament boat inspection program ( which they should be implementing anyway). It is kinda strange how other entities like the APBA can run 140 mile an hour 40 year old boats in their events,,, wait! even our own USAWS allows for those old boats to be used in ski racing.... they have an inspection program.. Crap I digress!

 

I would be willing to start that private tow boat data base. I think most skiers really want to ski and do not care if their preferred boat is not at the event they entered and are skiing behind a perfectly capable towboat.

 

Ill offer up the first candidate! 2009 ski Nautique 196 with 6.0 liters and current rev E-control and ZO.. Who's next?

[The_MS]

I ski behind a 2008 196 with ZO R and it’s a great pull. We just put ZO into an 05 196 last month and the pull is great. Would love to ski behind them at an event. I’m not sure why they shouldn’t be able to be used at an ELR as long as path and times or good.

[MattP]

@The_MS if you go outside the USA you can... IWWF does not regulate what year boats pull tournaments if I am not mistaken all they care about if the times are good..