If You're Going to Charge More, Then I Need More

[lakeo]

This thought precipitated out of the promo boat topic, but I'm not sure it's on topic (and I couldn't post in there anyway) so I started a new discussion.

I think if you are going to charge people more money,that is fine. People can decide if they want to pay that money or find a way around it or whatever they want to do. Now for me, if you are going to charge me more money I think you have to provide a better product, experience or somehow enhance what it is you are charging more money for. In short you have to justify it (to me)

So, what would I pay more money for at a tournament? Here is an idea. I would like video from the boat of any of my passes. I think this would be pretty simple to obtain and be almost $0 to the tournament folks, but I would be willing to pay, hmmmm, $10 per round. Would a lot of people want this or be willing pay this? I'm not sure. Maybe they wouldn't, but maybe there are folks who would. Or maybe there are low cost/no cost ideas that would enhance the tournament experience that would generate $ that could then be passed to whomever to keep this sport viable.

[lpskier]

We have a camera in the boat for all L/R rounds. If you come to our tournament at LaPoint Ski Park , tell the boat judge that you want your video so the judge can note the time on the camera, bring your own thumb drive and pay $10 per round as you suggest, you can gladly have your video. Caveat: You can not protest after reviewing your video; if you want to protest, you have to do so before seeing your video.

[The_MS]

@lpskier and pay the review fee up front

[skialex]

How about paying for drone footage of your passes? How much would that worth? I have two practice sets videoed by drone and they are amazing. It’s 2 and 3 years now and still watch them every now and then.

[unksskis]

The added benefit is you're getting to use a new model, up to date and maintained boat. While I disagree with this logic of adding cost to support promo people, I don't see the need for anything further, like video, which would require a volunteer or judge, which has some cost to it towards the execution of the tournament.

[Dacon62]

I think the premise of the original post was that skiers have been receiving benefits at the cost of others that may no longer be willing to absorb those costs. Receiving benefits that they were not necessarily entitled to but has come to be the expectation.

Now we are at a place were skiers will have to start paying for true costs and receiving similar or possibly fewer benefits.

Not a fun pill to swallow, but necessary.

Kinda like...the kids have to grow up, move out, get a job and stop asking Mom and Dad for money.

 

[lakeo]

The video was only meant as an example, but the overall idea is that at some point everyone votes with their dollars. Many would not see the new Ski Nautique as a benefit and would in fact far prefer a 200 with appropriate ZO not just skiers but drivers too.

As another example; consider the current ski Regionals to ski Nationals rule. What if instead of having to actually ski the Regionals you only had to pay the fee to ski Regionals to ski Nationals. Would this save money/reduce costs/make the event impossible to hold or some combination.

Anyway as expenses continue to grow the experience needs to grow too.

[aupatking]

I think if you’re level 5*, or lower, you should get more than 1 pass. I love the camaraderie of tournaments but the beginners need to enjoy the skiing. They should be able to have a minimum of 4 passes. Score the first attempt but let them ski. Anyone over that level is already getting what they pay for. Even if they blow their opener.

* whatever level minimum, I just threw in 5 as it showed up in another recent thread

[Horton]

this is going to be super unpopular but what if the additional costs are absorbed by the LOC?

[wski1831]

@Horton That is a reasonable option. Just raise the price of the tournament, or increase the sanction fee a set amount. Not sure how the money will get dispersed, but that might be simpler.

[dave2ball]

@lakeo if you don’t like the idea of helping the promo person absorb the cost then don’t ski in tournaments. Don’t be upset when an older boat is pulling your event because there is no promo boat at that tournament. The fact is a promo team member does not get compensated for travel expenses gas, hotel ect. Plus the extra insurance he must pay for to meet AWSA requirements and even damage to the boat that may be considered normal wear and tear. So giving a couple of extra dollars is not a bad thing. The free ride looks to be over.

If skiers didn’t have to go to regionals then there would be no regionals tournaments or it would be very small and filled with locals. The regionals offer seeding for nationals, it also allows the top five to go to the nationals if not qualified to ski in nationals. Could there be a better solution yes but that is another thread.

 

@Horton I do t think the LOC will suck up the extra cost. In most areas I believe some of the proceeds helps pay for lake maintenance and just trying to break even from all the AWSA fees, food and gas.

[ALPJr]

What if there was an option for novice skiers to pay an entry fee plus a limited number of per pass/mulligan fees?

[dave2ball]

@ALPJr if that would grow the sport great. The new skiers are who would help drive promo sale .

[fu_man]

OK. It keeps popping up. I have no idea what LOC is. Can someone enlighten me?

[lakeo]

@dave2ball I have no problem with the idea of helping the promo person absorb costs. I also have no problem skiing behind older boats. I was merely looking for ways to provide added benefit at no cost that people might like. Sorry if I offended you.

[MISkier]

@fu_man, it is Local Organizing Club. Essentially, it's the tournament host site and club that gets the sanction to conduct the tournament.

[ScottScott]

The idea of guaranteeing a certain number of passes would be a grass roots tournament. Maybe we need more of those.

 

I said in another thread... I don't think time on the water is really the best measurement of the value of a tournament.

[aupatking]

@ScottScott how many 1st time skiers have you seen come to another tournament after paying their $35 USAWS fee + the tournament fee and then having 2, 1-pass sets? I’ve brought people we'll never see at a tournament again. Grassroots should be part of every tournament, and it is 2 passes. Not multiple passes.

What else should be there to make up the value of the tournament?

[ScottScott]

@aupatking I started tournaments 2 years ago now. I had to do an opening pass of 26 mph so I could hopefully get 2 passes before trying my hardest pass at 30mph. But I didn't always make it through the 28mph pass.

[aupatking]

Then you know what I’m talking about better than most. I’m not going to tell a site owner “you guys should build a sand volleyball court”. They’re putting on a ski tournament, so if we are trying to make the ski tournament better for someone, what makes that happen?

For new people, it’s enough skiing to enjoy the experience.

For the rest of us, maybe it’s up to us, the participants. Maybe more of us volunteering our time to do more. Like building a volleyball court, or anything else to just make sure people have fun. I’m in, just give me ideas

[Horton]

ok guys new skiers should be treated differently. This is sort of another subject.

[aupatking]

Obviously I agree @Horton , but what more are we talking about getting from a tournament? Maybe I don’t get the concept of this discussion? What more should be added to make the enjoyment worth the price? I just think the LOC has enough to do, just putting the thing together that I’m not sure we should expect them to deliver more.

[Intheday]

Often tournaments are long days for two or three events and maybe 15 minutes skiing.

 

I think something like on site land based coaching. Doesn’t have to be much could be as simple as where to look during a pass or how to optimise body positions for tricks

 

Rules explained for example 15 minutes on full 1/2 or 1/4

 

Gear maintenance and tips

 

Driving tips and explanations

 

I know most people get these ideas from osmosis but 3 x 15 minutes combination of any of the above might send home people with the “value add” and only take up 45 minutes of the day.

 

[lakeo]

I will suggest one more example to try to get across my idea of revenue added at no additional cost.

Consider the turn and burn concept. I don't think it adds any dollar cost to a tournament. So is it logistically too difficult to allow some people to turn and burn and in return those people would be charged a premium. Do I want to do it? No, I have all the time in the world and really enjoy tournament days and talking to people and helping out in whatever way I can. But there might come a time when I would have other obligations that make it impossible for me to get two rounds under the normal timeframe. Do I expect tournament organizers to let me turn and burn for $0? No I would expect to pay an additional fee to inconvenience them.

So, that's the concept. Is it going to bother me to have tournament fees raised? No, I'm probably still going to go and enjoy the people and the places. I'm just trying to think of value added at no cost to anyone which might increase revenue. Sorry if it is bothering anyone.

[ScottScott]

@aupatking yes, I know what you're talking about.....my point is, I don't necessarily agree. While I may still only get 2-3 passes, for me its about hopefully putting up a score to improve my previous bests, under the pressures of the tournament format. I'm not looking to maximize my ski time.

 

There are some other little extras, like lunch provided (I've had at a couple tournaments.) I'll gladly pay $10-20 extra if they get BBQ catered or someone brings out a grill and does some burgers and dogs.....I'd even bring a side.

[lpskier]

@lakeo As an event organizer, I hate the turn and burn concept. By the end of the day, sometimes all that are left are your volunteer officials trying to get their last round in before it’s dark with an assistant driver behind the wheel and two 12 year old kids in the tower because that’s all you have.

 

Plus, while I’m sure it happens, I can’t think of many instances where T&B turned out to be a good strategy for a big score.

[ScottScott]

@lpskier For a relatively new skier such as myself, as mentioned above... I'll only be doing 2-3 passes. So a turn and burn still doesn't add up to a full normal set for me and I have plenty of energy left to turn right around and do another round. I not only set a new tournament best, but an all time best, at your tournament last year on the 2nd round of a turn and burn. Since I would really only get 1 easy pass in a round (which still isn't a given,) the turn and burn gives me a couple more passes to figure out what I'm doing....almost like a mulligan. I like it not so I get me home sooner, but I do better on the 2nd round (I was 1st off the dock, but still hung around the rest of the 1st round to watch the other skiers.) When I get to where I'm doing more passes in a round, I'm sure that perspective will change.

[MI3Eventer]

Tournament organizers need to realize that if the cost is up they need to offer more to bring in the skiers who could easily choose another weekend activity. I'm going to go to a tournament regardless because I get to see my friends in the community and getting some judging/driving in.

 

One thing that we have been bouncing around is side tournaments during the day for things like cornhole, volleyball, etc. The point being if someone is going to dedicate their whole Saturday and $50+, give them something to do. Free lunches are always a huge win for skiers and when you buy in bulk you can get it down to $3-$4 per person.

 

Adding a team aspect also makes it much more fun for competitors. @JeffSurdej runs a team tournament every year and 2 of the 4 members of my team only ski that tournament every year because of the team aspect.

[lakeo]

@lpskier I agree and so I think if someone wants to turn and burn it should be at a premium. That is sort of my point. Additionally, if someone has a late round assignment then they should feel obligated to that assignment. I also concur that turn and burn

probably doesn't result in a high score, but I have absolutely no data to base that on.

[Wish]

Costs go up for everything every year from year to year. Name a sport where costs have been stagnant. A fact of life should not be passed on to an LOC as if they are making more money because the entry fees have gone up. Veteran skiers know this. First timers are the ones that may see little value if they only get one or two passes in. If the LOC would like these skiers to come back, they may have to sweeten the pot with a 4 pass minimum. Beyand that, LOCs will always have cost increases they must pass on to us.

[JeffSurdej]

@MI3Eventer I think what makes that event fun is the handicap as well, skiing by handicap puts everyone in competition with everyone, the ROI on your entry fee is worth every cent. I have skied in a lot of events in my life and that team handicap event is still the most fun, the most nerves, the most competition of the season. Somehow we have to make this the way to compete, instead of just trying to attain a score.

[skierjp]

Sanction the first part of the tournament as F and then you get your guaranteed 4 passes plus it gives time for all the officials to get in place and make sure the cameras are working. It also allows up and.coming drivers a chance at driving. Palm Bay has done this in the past.

[lpskier]

@lakeo You could ski your first round as class F with a guaranteed four pass minimum for your warm up. Then ski Class C second and third round for a score. You can’t do that entry on line but you can check with the chief judge and the scorer on site to set it up. Most officials will gladly take the steps necessary to ensure that you have a positive experience.

[lpskier]

@ScottScott Scott, I hope we see you at our April tournament!

[dnewton]

Get the families involved! I only started skiing 4 years ago and I’m 27 years old. My wife is just starting to ski a bit. We have an 18 month old. I bought a camper specifically so the whole family could tag along to tournaments and get out of the heat and stay comfortable. I knew she wouldn’t come for the day if we couldn’t keep our son comfortable. This summer she wants to attempt some grassroots skiing, so I believe it’s working.

My parents (non skiers) have started to tag a long for some tournaments also.

 

Also, I love that nationals is close to a beach! I get to ski, she gets her beach vacation. It’s a win win! Maybe more night tournaments, that is an absolute blast!

 

I love tournaments and plan on trying to be apart of them as long as possible. Since there is usually only 2 or 3 competitors in my age group. I usually just pick the person with the closes average as mine in the group and try to beat them. So some handicapped scoring style tournaments would be neat also!

[6balls]

So some don't like the turn-n-burn. What if it was mandatory in round 2. It's basically a two rounder with burn on the second round for another shot. Everything finishes earlier so on Sat you can have a clinic, some coaching, live music, a banquet. Sunday everyone skis the same first two rounds with a burn on the second and folks get out earlier to back home. Charge tourney fees appropriately, take care of the promo guys, charge appropriately for the banquet and music. Makes a fun event of the two-day weekend such that it's more than just the skiing...some extra fun and comraderie?

 

This message will self destruct at it is a half-baked idea.

[RichardDoane]

@6balls the Turn/Burn format can not be mandatory, only an option. It’s in the rule book.

[6balls]

@RichardDoane I've always appreciated rules, I just sometimes don't find they apply to me :smile:

 

If the rules need to change, then change 'em. Only if my idea is valid, however. I'm just thinking how do we make a two day tourney weekend more fun?

 

If I knew I was turn n burn second round first day and knew we had a banquet and music for skiers...that would be cool. If I could turn n burn second day and get to the airport earlier without leaving those skiing a full 3 rounds to be the only one's there the second day I'd do it.

 

Some feel the money's worth is they get 3 rounds each day and I understand. If that's the case run it that way...same way it's always been and it's dying.

 

Make some fun...music, banquet, coaching, clinic etc with the time afforded at the end of each day with turn n burn. Just trying to think outside the box.

[teammalibu]

Last time I skied a turn and burn the 3rd round 3rd group had one skier, me!

[Golfguy]

In Az we do all of these things, we have 3 rounds, turn and burn, lunch dinner, tee shirts at some events and a fun atmosphere. Always looking for more ways to make the weekend fun. I’m sure we are not alone across the country. It would be interesting to hear how other LOC’s make their events worth attending.

[BraceMaker]

@skierjp not a bad idea other than it puts all your new skiers there and done early in the day and then they will watch for awhile but won't have tasks. Give novices a task with the judges or running the dock.

The 4 pass novice makes a lot of sense but it might even be better to make it 2 pass twice so the new skiers go down and back, continue if they made it they would then be more similar in timing to other skiers.

 

WiFi at the sites adds a lot of value

[ALPJr]

Bring back Marin’s Margaritaville.

[The_MS]

@teammalibu it was so long ago that I was probably in the boat judging

[Martin1980]

To keep people around until the end of the tournament in a three round tournament that includes a turn and burn give the skier the option to turn and burn their second round at the end of their first round only, this way everyone is still around to ski and help in the third round.