2021 is my last year of USAWS

[BraceMaker]

Only think I need from AWSA for public water is the ability to get my ski course permit issued through AWSA or ideally it would be a 50 state ski course permit. Keep renewed with them and then have them advocate w/ the state.

 

What else would you need a membership for on open water? I don't need USA Hockey to play pond hockey, I need it to join league teams.

[JeffSurdej]

@Jody_Seal I know you've never been my biggest fan, and that's fine. L10 was not crap, Anna Gay winning Masters and then tricking G3 at Nationals, Nate Smith winning M2 Slalom rankings, now that's crap. L10 had good intentions but was never implemented to work like it should. Doesn't matter, L10 is not the reason we are where we are. And yeah maybe the towboat decision was not the right call, although maybe Mastercraft would only have half the promo guys if we made that move, so what would be the gain, but I can promise you that we would be in this 3 event boat situation regardless of giving manufacturers more pulls at Nationals.

 

Jody, I have asked you this before with no response, tell me, what 5 things would you do if you were president tmrw, 5 specific things, lets help Lyman do better and you cant use broad goals like "get on public waters" or stop the elitest mentally, give me 5 specific things you would do in this new organization.

[Jody_Seal]

@JeffSurdej

1. Stop with mandate shit!

2. Concentrate on handle end of the sport.

3. Quit with the overburden of excesdive rules

4. Get rid of rankings list ideology /record ideolgy go back to true weekend competition. What other sport gets one to a national championship with out ever beating some one on the the same playing field?

5. Get out of the association with usoc.

6. Self policing of our membership as we have a

sportsmanship policy.

7. Stop with the rankings national champion there can only be 1 national champion. Whoopi shit i just became a rankings national champion cause I scored high against myself in three no pressure tournaments.

8. stop with the witch hunt on drivers.

9. Revamp the drivers tests to not be stupid and make it more realistic.

10. Go back to our own web site as it worked better then the government trash we have to use now.

11. Put direction of the sport back into the hands of membership via more available information and stop with the closed door politics. To many rules and policy continue to be voted on or made public to the membership with little time for membership to digest and direct their voted representatives.

12. Want to grow competition? Reach out to the

public water skiers and find ways to get them competing.

13. Stop with hypocritical rules that apply to some

things but not others.

 

[ScarletArrow]

1 - Become an catalyst for public ski courses by building a relationship with each states DNR and creating a pathway for permits.

 

2 - Become an catalyst increased local tournament participation by reducing bureaucracy - officials, speed control, promo boats, etc.

 

3 - Become an catalyst for the creation of local ski parks similar to Okeeheelee.

 

4 - Provide incentive for local ski clubs to increase membership especially to college students and young professionals.

 

5 - Settle on a philosophy regarding nationals - competition or party?

 

6 - Stop putting time and resources into discount programs (mattresses).

 

7 - Increase communication to constituents - perhaps 1x / month video.

 

Idk… Just ideas. I’m only a member because I have to be to ski tournaments. Outside of the registration process and getting an official score - what value is there really? My membership lapsed this year, but I skied a ton. USAWS is going to have to reinvent itself to survive.

[Jody_Seal]

 

 

[Jody_Seal]

And Jeff your level 10 crap was a bust from the start! you even had a dissension petition in your hands from a large number of members that you disregarded. Anna and Nate had every right to ski in their perspective divisions as do or did other skiers under the rules given. This year their were what 4 Masters division skiers at nationals? another bust division as all the top skiers that were eligible to ski Masters divisions decided to ski their age divisions.

 

14. get rid of the line in the rule book "there shall be no distinction between amateur and professional. don't have to add anything just get rid of it!

15. Get behind a true professional level. our organization spends tons on juniors only for them to have no place to go in the sport when they get older. Not a very good business plan.

16. get rid of the six flip rule in tricks. we might be able to field a male overall skier for world competition

17. get rid of the masters divisions unless the organization can find a way to make it more inviting to those who would qualify.

18. time to reinvent and resurface the organization. some regions need split like the west.

regional and state tournaments need more emphasis, should open skiers be required to attend regionals like the rest of the divisions? i think so unless there is a professional event that same time frame..should elite skiers be required to compete at nationals to ski on the us team? I think so and maybe even have to win the open division (that's an idea maybe skiers like Nate and Anna that are skiing that level would not ski age division if they knew they could not be on the team unless they win open at the nationals)(oh! but wait! you installed a stupid policy that allows skiers to ski in multiple division if qualified- another unfair and elitist policy!)

 

 

 

 

[unksskis]

There’s feedback, criticism, and then attacking. Let’s be civil, @Jody_Seal you're issues with the Level 10 have been voiced, now to the point of degrading.

[Jody_Seal]

@unksskis I have no idea who I'm addressing but I don't see my criticism as uncivil. Put your name up there so we know who you are. Your profile has no substance without a name. Or are you Jeff's protector?

Jeff's a big boy he got my respect when he stepped into the presidents role. I as a member of the organization have every right to critique crap policys when they exist!

Thats what this thread is about a crap policy directive coming out of leadership within the organization.

 

I decided that i needed to do the safe sport cell to make sure what I was against. And yes it is stupid indoctrination. And yes you have to pass their test to move on. I tried to give wrong answers only to be redirected to answer again.

We can't be parents to kids who's parents alow their kids to be involved in misbehavior or refuse to acknowledge or even condone.

There is a safesport program for kids maybe thats where this all should start and leave general membership alone.

Also you can't fight em if they block you out!

[JackQ]

In the words of Ronald Reagan, “ We can disagree without being disagreeable”. All to short of supply in recent times in many if not all venues.

[klindy]

@Jody_Seal you’re right, you have the right as a member to voice your opinion. You have. You and I have even talked multiple times about a variety of subjects - some we agree on, others we don’t. However I also think you’re over the top with some of your comments (no, I’m not Jeff’s protector but as Board Chair and previous Southern Region EVP and SC Region director before that, I have fingerprints on some of these issues and therefore have an equal right to reply).

 

Your criticism of Level 10 is odd since you seem passionate about abandoning the “ratings list mentality” and advocate for “real competition “. AWSA was setup years ago as an age based organization with the goal of allowing members to “compete against their peers” regardless of they were 8 or 80 or anywhere in between. With a large growing organization we saw lots of competition within those age groups with few outliers who were exceptionally better than their peers. Those who were “that good” typically skied in the Open divisions which were equally competitive. Likewise, before the days of online rankling lists a member had no real idea how well some else in their division was skiing unless and until they showed up at the Regionals or Nationals and COMPETED against each other. Today, just look online and the whole history is there. Completion has changed. You and I would agree that it’s largely disappeared.

 

As time evolved AWSA did try to adapt. Masters Men was an ability based division just like Open. Then Level 10 (and level 9) evolved to “improve” competition and, with Level 10, keep the age groups competitive. Obviously it didn’t work as conceived. The drop in membership and reduced number of skiers coming to regionals/Nationals complicates things even more with fewer and fewer skiers in more and more divisions, making those outliers even easier to spot.

 

So today AWSA is “stuck” between being setup as an aged based competitive organization or an ability based organization. Trying to be both isn’t working (in my opinion). My confusion with your comments is you want it to be ability based but you don’t want the ability based divisions. (masters) or support attempts to keep the age based divisions competitive (level 10). I agree we can’t be both but we also can’t go ack to the way things were 20-30 years ago.

 

[Jody_Seal]

@klindy

Level 10 was BS from the onset simply because of how low the thresholds were set.

Trying to mandate a 198 foot jumper to open against professional level 6 foot competitors as well as 6500 point trickers mandate against 11,000 point competitors takes the wind out of the sails of skiers. Yet the threshold for slalom was in the ball park why?

Masters division is a joke because no one enters it when it comes to national championship. one MM trick skier this year? and he got beat by a guy in his proper age division. no competition there..

You have forgotten over the years i have sat on many committees as well as been a industry representative in this sport. You are using the word ability based so dont put words out their that i did not say. whatever competition of the day on the field of the day is what this organization is about or at least should be about. Rankings list is a good thing and yes it is cool to see where one stacks up in whatever division they are in, however it does not equate to competition of the day, it should not be utilized for anything more then how skiers are going off the dock at the championship levels.

The rankings list does not care how skiers are grouped on a general competition day, but rankings does not take into consideration the level of pressure at any given tournament. way to much skiers get Rankings scores with out any competition pressure at all. Let alone the fact that for the AWSA there is no difference between rankings scores generated at a class c vs E vs l&R.

 

Here's an idea if a skier skis Masters division all year in general tournaments and enters states , regional and nationals in age division make them go off the dock first. See how that puts pressure on them to win or entices them to ski the division they skied in all summer.

 

We are continually loosing members and yet you all have way too many excuses as to why ! BS excuses at that! maybe with this new president realistic goals and avenues for enrichment within the membership will stimulate growth and real competition at all levels.

Mandates are only running off members....

 

[ETskier]

Question, is every member of the USGA (Golf) required to go through Safe Sport? Does Safe Sport even have any jurisdiction over Golf? Same for World Anti-Doping?

[BraceMaker]

@ScarletArrow agreed.

 

Growth is access Safesport is not a problem again other sports having no issues getting members to join its a non-issue for them here its just people griping about it.

 

Issues - public water skiers cannot get courses or the courses are molested.

 

Issues - local tournaments are full with a wait list how you gonna bring in new skiers if the current events are already waitlisted?

 

Issues - local private lakes don't take in new skiers or don't have mechanisms to allow people to ski there.

 

Issue collegiate skiers disappear.

 

How many current usaws member havent skied an event this year. How many less than 3?

[Zman]

Let's see. I could actually read all 21 pages of this thread. Or, in about the same time, take the SafeSport training.

 

[Jody_Seal]

@BraceMaker brings up some reality to the subject.

Long lines to get in. A tournament can only pull so many rides in a day. Reason for wait list is more then 2 rounds equate to minimal entrys . 30×3 equates to 90 rides in a day. Add another round and on a 1 lake site spills over to the next day. Makes holding a three event difficult.

 

Valid issues for sure. However like @klindy said things are different then it was 20 or 30 years ago. Back then our organization was active and successful in selling to the general lake skiers. our organization was very active in waterways advocacy. Active in aquiring sponsorship back into the organization. Back then usaws/awsa was run closer to a buisness then the government style beuracratic organization it is today. @JeffSurdej does another start up organization or competitive club have merit? I can say in the southern region their is a bit of comunication across the land that says it might or could have merit and be successful.

 

@Zman you are correct. Took me almost an hour to fumble through the useless government indoctrination.

 

For those of you that continue to protest against government intrusion into this sport it is comenable. In the next 24 months life as we know it in this sport is going to change dramatically. Fuel prices is going to impact greatly. Supply chain for boat parts and ski accessories are already impacting the sport.

 

 

Would like to thank again mr. @Horton for being patient and allowing this thread to continue.

Our own organization has no means for social media feedback. Thank you again sir.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Wish]

@Zman i have no stake in the game currently but no one was mandated to take the time to read this thread be it informative to them or not in oder to continue enjoying BOS. Just sayn.

[The_MS]

We don’t need SafeSport. It is another (of a very long list) poorly run government organization that was pushed on us. Get out from under the USOC and get rid of the cock roaches that continue to put a hamper on us. We can suspend people just like they can. Name one thing that the government has their hands in that is a Success? They ruin everything that they get involved in. EVERYTHING

Wake up people. This isn’t about 90 minutes every 4 years and 30 minutes yearly.

[dthate]

Hmmmm still thinking, government org, success?

[bigtex2011]

@The_MS didn't you leave on page 20. :smile:

[vtmecheng]

@Jody_Seal I want to make sure that I understand one of your points. You said, “ We can't be parents to kids who's parents alow their kids to be involved in misbehavior or refuse to acknowledge or even condone.

There is a safesport program for kids maybe thats where this all should start and leave general membership alone.” Can you please expand on this a bit? Are you saying that no safesport training will keep a piece of crap from being a piece of crap?

 

If so, I agree. The real change comes from teaching others how to identify when something bad is happening behind the scenes and what to do about it. Not saying that the training does a good job of that.

[dave2ball]

@vtmecheng I can’t and won’t speak for mr seals but all this class is going to do is show teach a piece of crap what people are looking for. With certain knowledge give it just show a different path a person can take to a bad thing. The parents are ultimately responsible for their kids. It is the parent job to teach them right from wrong and educate them about certain situations. You are correct that if SP has a program for kids it should be mandatory for minors to take.

[Wish]

@dave2ball with or without out parent consent??... aka rabbit hole.

[dave2ball]

@wish if thee kids want to ski then the parents must consent . It’s for their safety too.

[BraceMaker]

@vtmecheng best way to understand safesport.

 

You are a parent you raise your kid right. They enjoy the sport and you send them off with other kids to ski.

 

Their coach is someone who you pay to have lessons with and is maybe 4 or 5 years older than them. He is supposed to take them out to lunch and back as part of camp.

 

Should that coach get backrubs in hotel rooms from your kid?

 

 

[Wish]

@BraceMaker I’m gonna bet a fair share of parents on this site would suggest to you that their kid would not be stupid enough to agree to giving that back rub. And that’s without any SafeSport Vid being shown to them. I know youth that have taken the course and said ...ya gotta be some kind of dumb to not see that kinda stuff coming. Or ...it’s just common sense. That comes from just plain old good parenting. This does not speak to all scenarios.

 

@dave2ball it’s the same argument. You’ll just alienate the families that push back on membership mandates to do SafeSport. But now you’ll lose future members, drivers, judges, LOCs, enthusiasts, consumers for companies...... Rabbit hole.

[JeffSurdej]

@Jody_Seal wow I'm behind on this discussion, couple quick comments 1) I agree 100% that safesport should only be for coaches, I can tell you that part of my resignation had to do with not wanted to deal with this mandate. This is not going to be pretty, cant wait to get 1200 NCWSA kids to take this course 2) I think the really debate is not starting a new organization but whether AWSA is better off on its own vs under the USAWS and IWSF umbrella. If there is a move to make I think that's it, if a new organization starts we are just splitting our resources and members which are limited as it is. Almost every comment/suggestion made here I can relate back to USAWS and/or IWSF 3) I don't want to debate L10 b/c its over, I know it failed, and I pushed to end it just as much as I was the reason it started but I always find it hypocritcal when someone says its not fair that a 6500 tricker had to trick against 10,000 yet its ok for a 1000 tricker to trick against 10,000 or same could be said for jump, its ok for 75 feet vs 180 but not 190 vs 220? L10 was about competition actually but like I said its over, agree to disagree. Love the conversation overall, hope to be able to keep up with it.

[vtmecheng]

@BraceMaker I was less asking about SafeSport and more making for a clarification of opinion. Ask the question instead of assuming I know what he meant.

 

I am a big proponent of helping to keep bad things from happening to kids. Some kids have poor self esteem and are more willing to go along with things in the moment. Add in a good looking person that they respect and it can go bad quickly. This may be difficult for others to comprehend. It may also be difficult to wrap your head around a kid who cuts themselves, has eating disorders, etc. This isn’t always about bad parents or upbringing but can be bad situations with other kids at school or a mental issue that has been hidden from the parents. Those are the kids that need help, not the ones who inherently would never do it. We all make mistakes in life and find different things hard. The goal is to keep mistakes that haunt forever from happening.

[T_C]

Keeping bad things from happening to kids is the parents responsibility not safe sport.

 

[vtmecheng]

@T_C So If I drop a 15 year old daughter off at a reputable ski camp, do I need to stay because it’s on me? It’s no different than dropping your kid off for soccer practice. The parent doesn’t necessarily stick around. It’s still the parent’s responsibility?

[The_MS]

If you love her, yes

What is a reputable ski camp? Is it one where they all have completed SS training?

[scuppers]

Great response @The_MS - that guy is egging on for a confrontation.

[6balls]

@vtmecheng @The_MS @scuppers if a camp went an extra mile to ensure safety and make sure its hires were held to a particular educational standard with the handling of minors--whether it be safesport or some other--that probably matters.

I'm a physician--does my Board Certification matter to you? I can practice without it. I also do medical malpractice consulting work--without it I don't have any work in that arena (or access to many other jobs as a physician).

It takes a lot of work to keep it up to date and in place. I dread it sometimes because it may or may not actually make me a better physician--but it speaks to the sacrifices I am willing to make.

Sure a predator can take the training I get it...but if a camp or organization holds their indiviuals to some sort of higher standard--I appreciate that and am more likely to feel comfortable with my kids there. My guess is that kind of camp, where everyone is required to be trained, is not necessarily the hot-bed of where predators would show up b/c the culture looks for it.

I digress...

 

 

[vtmecheng]

@scuppers so I ask some questions and point out a couple of my thoughts and I’m looking for a confrontation? No. If I were looking for a confrontation, it would be way more forward about it. Don’t be so sensitive.

[6balls]

For that matter I spent 2.5 hours on online modules and in person test out for basic life support last week--I'm certified in Advanced Cardiac Life Support, Advanced Trauma Life Support, and Advanced Pediatric Life Support--but I still need to take basic. Our organization requires basic of everyone, and it's important to have the doctors up there... sleeves up with the staff--it helps set a culture of expectation.

I've also cared for rape patients and been called to testify at a rape trial. Safesport may not be the solution but anything/everything we can do singularly/collectively prevent such abuse and set a cultural standard against same in the areas of work or play in which we participate is a good idea and, it seems, not a horrific sacrifice.

 

[Jody_Seal]

So they plan on making all the international skiers that ski awsa events take the safe sport indoctrination al$o??

[6balls]

Oh the humanity.

 

Blood borne pathogens, active shooter, OSHA, corporate compliance and others. Screw it I quit...(kidding of course)

 

Full disclosure my 4th spine surgery and a nerve ablation in my neck in the last 2 months means my days of tournaments are over--had a good run there and in powerlifting. My kids are out of the house so not chasing kids sports. So do I have to take safesport? No. Send me a link I'll watch it soon in the middle of what is, gulp, an 84 hour work week on inpatient service taking care of this covid mess among other things--maybe I will learn something or re-learn something.

[buoyboy1]

I would be curious to know how many of these predator incidents/situations have been reported to AWSA the past say 20 years to better understand how big of a problem this all is?

[rfa]

@6balls, I clicked "awesome" on your post above, but should clarify. Your attitude and perspective are awesome. But I am sorry about your recent injuries/health status. That part, not awesome...

[dave2ball]

@6balls I’m in the same boat you are as a FF. All the same classes other the PHTLS ACLS AND PALS because I gave up my medic. It’s pretty bad when you go through the AWSA safety recent and you know more the the instructor 90% of the time and they don’t care.

[unksskis]

Will membership refunds be offered to those who do not comply after the deadline? For example, anyone who purchased a multi year membership prior to this going into effect, as it was not part of the agreement/understanding at the time of purchase.

[dave2ball]

When is the deadline?????

[The_MS]

@dave2ball Jan 1 is deadline.

Still no info on the enforcement. Will the LOC be in charge of enforcement?

[scoke]

This quote from Surdej is hilarious:

"This is not going to be pretty, cant wait to get 1200 NCWSA kids to take this course"

 

The loss of revenue is going to add up very quick.

April 1st after the first quarter financials is going to be interesting.

 

Better "hope" the government is going to keep funneling/funding/paying off awsa.

 

With the strings already attached to USOC and the government received funds, for 2022 there probably will be vaccination requirements on memberships by the governing body coming in the next 3-5 months.

 

Just like a maiter de in NYC, the dock starters will be checking vac status cards. Hilarity ensues!!

[Jody_Seal]

Just found out this morning that international skiers skiing in AWSA events will be exempt from the safe sport mandate!!

WTF!!!

[The_MS]

Come on man! I guess if your from another country you can be trusted by the people setting mandates

 

[LeonL]

@Jody_Seal you gotta be sh**ting me! So, it's only a USAWS requirement and IWWF doesn't see it as necessary? Just as I was sitting down to take the course and thought I'd browse BOS.

@unksskis not likely to see a refund, in my opinion. But there should be, as they changed the rules in the middle of the game.

@The_MS enforcement will probably come as the scorer tries to set up the tournament and any "noncompliant" will show up as not an active member. (Edit) Or if you try to enter online you'll get the message "Not an active member".

[6balls]

Three times vaccinated I will be your dock starter all day long and twice on Sundays--safe as can be and my freedom maximized.

 

Done with my 84 hour work week in the hospital saving the bacon of the unvaccinated (or watching 3 of them pass--last time I was on for a week lost 2 and transferred 2 middle aged healty men on vents--now I have nowhwere to send anyone--no place to send a cardiac yesterday who needs angiogram and stent--took over 12 hours to find placement with interventional cardiology--covid is clogging up everything everywhere). So many hanging in the balance just short of ventilator need. Oh yeah out of blood, too, couldn't transfuse 2 patients yesterday no supply...this isn't fun.

 

Maybe off topic but I didn't bring it up. Not in favor of a mandate necessarily, just educated decisions when the education comes from the majority of the experts in the field--not from Dr. Google or "they say" or "I heard" or "this one doctor" or "small minority of doctors say" stuff.

 

OK, vax rant over, carry on...and if you still want to ski tourneys watch the safesport stuff. If not, the organization implodes (granted people actually refuse) and then we see what happens next. If that is the direction, I hope something better comes to be in the future.

 

 

[The_MS]

@6balls I guess that Minnesota’s lock downs and mask mandates didn’t work. Send them down to the pan handle, we have lots of room.

[Jody_Seal]

@6balls

Understand your frustration, front line professional medical personal are being ground down with this epidemic. My daughter and son inlaw are treating covid patients everyday. Coding out is a near every day occurrence at the facility they work at. But they are more treating gunshot, catastrophic auto, industrial accidents as well as Extreeme recreational accidents...Still Hurricane related accidents..it has aged them..

My Rant.

 

Really! does government assistance need to be in this sport?

Wonder how long til California terminates Petroleum fired vessels on inland waters? (RANT AGAIN)

Oh and who was it said fuel prices would not go up?

Thats government assistance for ya.

Like I said take their money, play by their rules!

 

 

[elr]

@The_MS that has to be about the most upsetting statement I have ever seen. My son has been watching the unvaccinated die in the understaffed Fort Walton Beach ICU for months. Many times more than one a shift. And, you make a political statement/Joke about it. We don't need more COVID patients in Florida.