Whats the rule for failing a deep water start in a tournament

[swbca]

I thought falling or failing to get up outside the course was the "end". Watching the Nationals the handle popped out a skiers hand on the deep water start, and thankfully they went back for another try.

[MISkier]

Driver error is basically your only option for another attempt at your deep water start. The driver would essentially accept responsibility for somehow not applying the throttle correctly or otherwise affecting your start (boat turned, line not tight at throttle up, dragging the skier excessively before throttling up, etc.).

 

As a driver, I have called "driver error" on myself a few times. Typically, it has been with very young kids or elderly skiers who require a specific throttle management to avoid overpowering them.

[swbca]

When the M7 or M8 skier lost the handle getting up for his first pass, I was afraid it was the end. I didn't know why he got a second try but was relieved he did. Getting to the Nationals is a "long" trip for every amatuer skier. What a way to end

[igkya]

And what happens if the skier makes the entrance/exit gates and all 6 balls but falls and loses the handle during his pull out to drop at the end of the pass? Come on, we've all done that at least once, right?

[swbca]

It's over unless it was driver error

[jjackkrash]

I have seen re-rides for skis sticking in the mud bottom on the start. I am not sure if that's rule based or just mercy.

[swbca]

Re jjackkrach comment about mud. If there was an unexpected obstruction in the water outside the course like in the turn-around area that affected a skier, I imagine the "Unfair Conditions" rule would be applied to permit the skier to resume . . it wouldn't be a "rerun" but could be applied to permit the skier to continue.

[ral]

Just complementing what @MISkier said, the same “unfair conditions” as mentioned by @swbca is what is applied for a driver error.

[Jody_Seal]

meh! as a driver ill take the hit, give the skier another shot. shit happens its all good and the sun will rise the next morning.... but only one!

[ScottScott]

I've missed a couple in tournaments. Of course they were all class C, but they were always accommodating. I was however quickly corrected when I started to apologize. The driver jumped in and said it was their fault.

 

I'm not sure if I qualify as the "elderly" that @MISkier referred to, but I can pop a handle pretty easily if overpowered.

[LeonL]

In response to the title of this thread, by the rules you're done. As several said, especially by an elite driver (@Jody_Seal) grace applied by the driver is pretty common. A little story from several years back. Nationals at WPB, in the days where the boat crew consisted of driver, judge and "rope handler". I was standing around the starting dock and the ACJ was looking for said rope handler. I volunteered. G1 and early on a skier fails to get up. Driver and judge look at each other and conclude "it's Nationals" and tell her "sorry but you're done". I had no say but I interjected, "what's the harm" to no avail. This was on the far end of the lake. About 4 skiers later a little girl fails to get up on the starting dock end. ACJ calls the boat and says pull her again, as it appeared too much throttle was applied. My comment to the driver and judge was "you'll, see that first girl again ". The fury of mama bear will come fruition. Sure enough, we pulled her again. Moral, do the right thing and save trouble. Neither skier was gonna affect the podium.

[skiinxs]

As the driver I always take the hit. Heck, it probably really is my fault anyway. Unfortunately I am also frequently on the receiving end of this as well especially after a knee replacement.

[cruznski]

Way back there used to be the option for one handle throw at the start of your set does anyone recall that?

[dchristman]

 

[ski6jones]

@dchristman I don't think that language is in the current rule book, at least I couldn't find it. https://www.teamusa.org/-/media/USA_Waterski/Disciplines/3-Event-Water-Skiing/AWSARulebook.pdf?la=en&hash=B62943892FA833196B2F379B9F0DF0E2CC8991F5

[ski6jones]

@leonl I don't disagree but it's a slippery slope.

[dchristman]

@ski6jones that's from the 1977/78 rulebook.

[lpskier]

@ski6jones see AWSA Rule 10.11.

@dchristman Don, time to get a new rule book.

[ToddL]

Driver error has been the default deepwater start mulligan for as long as I can remember. It seems silly that it isn't just a formal rule. I see no harm in it. If it is already happening, then legitimizing it as a rule would not extend tournament time at all.

[Than_Bogan]

@ToddL I've been trying to think of any scenario where someone could misuse such a rule, and I'm not coming up with much. The closest I can get to a concern is someone entering a tournament who just isn't consistent at starts in the first place, and taking lots of time trying to get up in the middle of a tournament. That seem far-fetched! But anyhow, we could limit it to one re-start per skier if that's even needed.

 

Like you said, in my mind it already is a rule: All missed starts are driver error.

[Andre]

@Than_Bogan How'bout someone who is really out of breath and is looking bit more time to catch his breath...

[jjackkrash]

@andre if somebody is so out of breath that they'd suffer the shame and embarrassment of missing a start in a tourney on purpose I'd just assume we give them the time to catch their breath. And maybe a little oxygen out of a bottle for good measure.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

IMO the “driver error” is the best option and leaves discretion to the driver, boat judge and if necessary the chief judge.

 

We had regionals a few years ago with a 70 something man with a bad back. First attempt the driver yanked him over the front. Second attempt the driver drug him about 50 ft at 10 mph before he finally let go. I don’t remember if it took 3 or 4 attempts to finally get him up. In that case it was clearly driver error (more accurately incompetence). A mulligan rule would possibly take away rare cases like that.

 

Our rule book has a lot of crap largely from rare or unusual scenarios. The unintended consequence leads to frequent confusion.

There are times when it’s better NOT to have a specific rule and leave it to the discretion of the officials.

[ToddL]

@Bruce_Butterfield that assumes a rule allowing for 2 attempts would also equate to limiting to only 2 by negating the opportunity for driver error. That should not be the case.

 

Driver/official could and should still call driver error if/when it exists.

[Broussard]

Great idea, lets add more pages to the rulebook ?

[ToddL]

@Broussard yeah, I know. You aren't wrong.

 

[lpskier]

So here is the corollary to “the rule.” Skier gets up and achieves skiing position but then bottoms out going around the turn island. What then? For @randy meny at Nationals in Bako, the answer was sorry Charlie, you’re all done. Personally I thought that sucked.