Turn Island or No Turn Island

[Skoot1123]

Looking for comments/opinoins on a turn island for your ski lake. Who uses them, who doesn't? Small or Large. Also, is the lake mostly slalom, mix of slalom and wakeboard, any barefooters? Thanks!!

[boarditup]

I decided on no turn islands after seeing several people strike them on other lakes. They are also a maintenance hassle. I did have placed 5 large anchors in the ends of the lakes so I could anchor a floating island if needed. So far, no issues that would prompt me to install any. Without the island I can surf around the corner, have show ski pyramids make the turn, and host disabled events.

[Wolfeie]

We have turn Islands on all three lakes. Helps keep rollers down especially when a skier spins.

Only one lake in our area (out of 13-14) does not have Islands and they get scum build-up at the ends of the lakes because there is no wave action from boats going around Island to keep the water agitated. All the Islands are rocked so no maint issues.

[cwillygood]

id say no turn islands, i skied down at ultimate ski lake, and they didnt use them, if you were to do it for things like keeping rollers down id make them small

[ral]

We have BIG islands and zero hassle with them.

[scuppers]

For sure NO turn islands! They are a big maintance headache and a haven for snakes espcially the rock covered islands.

[Skoot1123]

@scuppers - what about mostly a dirt island with riprap where needed?

[scuppers]

@Skoot1123 - You'll be out there with a weed wacker or spraying roundup a lot more than you think plus you'll still have snakes. Islands tend to wash in after while as well. We don't have them - but my friend Jack Middleton (Dream Lake, Meridian MS) does have them and given the choice, he'd rather not.

[boarditup]

You want a lake deep enough that weeds do not grow at the water depth. With an island, you likely will have shallow water and weeds in the area. Go deep and save the maintenance cash.

[gregy]

We have a turn island at one end of a shorter lake. It has a really short set up and the island helps. Set ups are plenty long on other lakes so not needed. I'd say no island be long setups with room to spin if needed.

[MrJones]

I have changed my mind on this since digging my lake. I did not do islands for the maintaince issues mentioned. (It is 2150' straight in)

 

After skiing on it for several years I now long for the set up time given by turn islands. When I go and ski at Covington (Which is 2150' but with islands) I have so much more time to settle in on my ski before the gates. Darwin's lake is the same as mine and CP mentioned that at 36 he felt prertty rushed in his set up. (No dis on Cottonwood BTW. My 36 mph PB was set there)

 

Way down the road if I ever have to do any major work on my lake I would seriously consider opening up the far end so we could turn and gain some length both ways.

 

BTW. If you don't want to deal with an island you can do what they do at one end at Ski Scape in Mandeville LA. The have pilings with 3"x12" boards in a triangle pattern at the end. The posts are treated and will last basically forever. It is not a big/noticable structure. Easy to change the 2"x12"s. All you are doing is breaking up the wave action and this seems to do fine.

 

 

[Skoot1123]

@scuppers - I would imagine you being in Florida might mean more snakes? Where I currently ski we have some snakes in the water, but rarely do we see them.

 

@gregy - ~60ft diameter island and 110ft @ 8ft deep between island and shoreline. Approximate slope of shorline is 3:1 and in some cases may be 2:1. Does your site have shallow water?

[Waternut]

You know what's kinda funny is that I've only skied on one lake that has islands at both ends. The other lakes have had islands at only one end. I've never noticed random rollers at any of the lakes without special circumstances that would be present no matter what you had.

 

As a skier only (not a lake owner) I see pros and cons to both. There are learning curves to driving different lakes and learning to keep rollers down in part of the process no matter what the setup. When there is an island, we typically drop in front of it and get pulled up and go around it. In theory this gives more time to get settled before entering the course but for me it really doesn't because I'm afraid to adjust my shorts or really get settled while accelerating through a narrow path and tight turn. For me, it's just more time that I'm hanging onto the rope (and working hard because I'm sinking due to my ski being a little too small for slower speeds).

 

When there is no island, we just pull out in the middle and drop and the boat comes around us and heads back on the same path. Really easy for the skier since you just sit there and rest while the driver does all the work. You end up going right into the course but I personally don't have any less time doing that than I would going around an island. If we spin on the side without an island, I'm actually more comfortable because I feel like I go to the inside or outside of the wake without worrying about hitting land or getting too shallow.

[sunvalleylaw]

As a guy pretty new to comp lakes, I am not used to stopping after each pass. I like to spin around and keep skiing. The islands at Black Butte ranch seem to do a good job of keeping down the rollers, and do not seem to be a big maintenance issue out there in the high desert. But then again, I am just a guest there and do not have to maintain them.

[thompjs]

On shorter lakes maybe.

 

Ski Texas Phase 2 is pretty lucky, we have virtually maintenance free islands.

The Pampas Grass (a large bush) chokes out the weeds.

 

 

[scuppers]

@Skoot1123 - @jfw432 really says it best in his post. It's pretty hard to settle in and adjust while you're flinging around in a tight little circle. Yes, snakes galore in FL, but also in MS. I worry more about the snakes than the gators.

[eleeski]

Turn islands are EVIL!

 

Safety issues, maintence issues, boat path issues, effectively shortening the lake, more rollers (yes!), excavation extras, pain for trickers - the list of awful turn island attributes can go on forever.

 

If needed, you can spin without an island - just simulate one. But get used to going straight in to the course without a turn around an island and you will love it!

 

If you want the optimum shape, replace the islands with a dogleg.

 

Tropical islands rock!

 

Eric

[The_MS]

Turn Islands Rock. Set up time, roller cut down and good structure for the fish. You will have weeds and need to deal with them on any lake you build so dont let that be a factor.

[Skoot1123]

@MS and everyone else - thanks for the input! If all goes well there may be a lake in my future. Waiting to hear on permits.......

[Chuck_Dickey]

Big Islands - Good. Small or no islands, Bad.

 

I have skied both and with islands, no bow rollers are created during the pull up. Simulating islands or spinning sends a huge roller down the full length of the lake.

 

Big islands allow higher boat speeds so no sinking or struggling on small skies. You must allow for extra width for their size to help prevent inexperienced drivers from hitting them.

[jdarwin]

As Jones stated above, our lakes are almost identical. Unlike Scot, I would not re-think the addition of turn islands. To be effective, they must be off-center or you send rollers down the lake. Even if they are off-center, the driver must know the correct path to exit or rollers will go down the course. When I built my lake, I inquired with many lake owners and 90% of those I surveyed who have turn islands wished they had not put them in. (Quantify - these were single-owner sites. Not HOA's that have a built in labor force). A simple dog-leg at each end would provide a similar benefit. Many of the sites I ski that have them are extremely tight, shallow and in reality, don't provide any more "adjustment time" than my site due to the fact that I'm holding on for dear life! And, for the inexperienced driver/skier, they can be a significant hazard.

[Chuck_Dickey]

For the record, all the lakes I have skied w/o islands are short setup and folks with a Traditional two handed gate suffer.

[jedgell]

My vote is for islands. The site I ski at now has and island on one end, the other end we treat like an island is there and make a turn then enter the course. After a couple passes the rollers start to become a small issue. It's a shorter lake, so we have to make the turn vs going straight in. It really all depends on the length of the lake. In my opinion anything shorter than 2200' should have islands, without it's hard to get a good setup especially at 36 and traditional gate.

[gregy]

@skoot1123 the island dimensions you have there are much larger than the site we ski on and yes it is shallow and the island has eroded some over the years so the shallow extends out a ways from the island. The channel ranges for about 4 ft to 6 ft deep. The lake was originally a flood control dam that was modified into 2 separate lakes so there were some design constraints to deal with. The island is a jungle and I'd be a little scared of what critters might be living there.

 

The larger Jump/slalom lake has lots of setup on either end and large areas for turn around, no island. The small lake with the island has plenty of room to come straight into on the no island end (but a very tight turn around). The other end you really need to go around the island otherwise the setup is to short.

 

I'm no expert and they're people out there that have put a ton of time and thought into lake designs. My opinion: I like setting down on each end and being able to comfortable ski straight into the course. My ski partner likes to spin around without setting down. So I guess Ideally you could have an offset turn around area (island or not) and room to set down and come straight in.

[GAJ0004]

Dave's Pond in Edinboro PA has a big egg shaped island at one end they use for slalom. The lake always stays calm. They have another island at the other end they use when pulling jumpers. The boat is pretty much up to speed when they make the turn around it.

[GAJ0004]

I would have big turn islands that way I could plant trees on them to help be a buffer from the wind.

 

[GAJ0004]

If you go to the Google satellite map 9748 Eureka Rd Edinboro PA you can see how Dave's pond is designed.

[Steven_Haines]

If I'm not mistaken, decomposed granite (for some reason) doesn't allow weeds to grow, you can get varying colors/shades to compliment the natural colors in your area and it's relatively inexpensive to purchase.

My vote would be a lake with offset islands.

[Brodie]

I prefer them as they eliminate rollers, and I haaaaaaaate rollers. IMO, worth a little extra work for the benefits. Spinning on the ends will always produce rollers down course without islands!!! Some boats are worse than others with the bow roller, but a concern regardless.

[boarditup]

You can eliminate both the spin rollers and bow wave rollers with bottom design and course layout. It takes a disciplined driver and a compliant skier, but it does work well.

[ForrestGump]

Since I have contacts, I hate islands. I'm always losing my contacts in my eyes from spray going around islands. Our lake is 2450' without islands and it's a nice, long setup.

 

The exception is Ski Ranch in Covington. Those islands are so large that ZO is already engaged halfway around the islands. I've never had issues with water in my eyes there.

[jdarwin]

Some of my best scores are at a site in Mississippi that is 1250' in length - no islands but a small dog leg on both ends. Set up time? Overrated!

[eleeski]

Explain how an obstacle that takes up space on your lake can make it longer? Any path that can be run around an island can be followed without the island. A big island means you don't have a big water area to turn in - just another set of dangerous shorelines to hit.

 

Rollers from a turn are minimal compared to residual rollers from a wide lake - but don't you need a wide lake to have a safe island?

 

Jumps seem to be placed in a manner to make big jumps entertaining for the spectators - a big jump needs a quick diversion to avoid a crowd entertaining runout onto the island. If you care about the health of jumpers, lose the islands.

 

Trickers and wakeboarders want the whole lake to ski on. And a double up is not possible around an island.

 

Don't even try to barefoot around the island!

 

Floatplanes don't like islands either - for those of us lucky enough to have a floatplane rating.

 

Islands, even well designed ones, have killed at least one person. Islands are good for slimy attorneys...

 

If you are totally water deprived, an island can make your lake area smaller - less water loss. Also if you are in a wind tunnel, a well designed island can block some of the wind from the course.

 

How islands got so popular is beyond me. But once a few island lakes got built, every "ski lake" had to have an island. Lemmings!

 

Eric

[Skoot1123]

@eleeski - The biggest reason in my book for turn islands is for setup time and ease of turning around with a wakeboarder. Right now there are only three drivers, so new drivers would learn right away with the islands. (of course the new drivers have 14 or so years before they can drive) NO Barefooting around the island!! You'd be crazy to do that! It'll just keep rollers from going down the lake. If the permit goes through, I'll post some plans on this site!

[ral]

Big turning islands rock!

[ral]

@scotchipman, you are not correct. You are assuming the course is in the middle of the lake. The turning islands are well set relative to the course.

[ral]

@scotchipman, no worries, it is not evident in the pics... lake is fairly wide, so it was constructed thinking about being a jump record capability lake... Maybe we will see some great jumping when hosting training for the 2013 Worlds!

[Skoot1123]

@ral and @scotchipman - sweet lakes! Our islands will be offset a bit as well in order to get a nice straight shot out of the turn. Big islands are nice! 20 to 30 foot islands are small, but doable if you have the right boat.

[eleeski]

Push rollers from the prop aimed back at the course are more significant than a spin roller way at the end of the lake.

 

Real wakeboarders want a double up not a boring (or scary) ride around an island.

 

@Skoot1123 don't put islands in! The guy who died hitting the very comfortable islands at Imperial would reccommend against it (as well as the owners who ended up on the hook for some liability despite insurance and what should be standard well designed islands). Okeehelee FL, Broadside Harbor ID, Ironwood #2 CA, my lakes and many other prime sites have no islands. Why add the expense, maintenence, reduced potential uses and liability of islands if you have a clean sheet?

 

Eric

[Skoot1123]

@eleeski - once you see the map you'll realize there is a buffer built in. Not everyone has the luxury of a long setup such as 2300' long, 10:1 shores, and 300 or so feet wide. I wasn't aware of fatalities occuring as a result of islands.....

[ToddF]

Our spot has no islands, but we ski it as if there were islands. and Never hit rollers on the start spin.

 

On a no drop spin you hit rollers whether there is an island or not.

[eleeski]

@Skoot1123 The danger from islands is real. There were other factors in the Imperial situation - but the jury still found against the islands.

 

Open water removes some risks, allows multi uses of the lake and can easily simulate islands. What do you really want islands for? Because other ski specific lakes have them is not a reasonable motivation.

 

Eric

[Waternut]

The guy who built the lake I ski at did the best of all the worlds IMO. He only has an island at one end but I've never experienced a roller on the other side of the lake either. When we spin, we go around the island clockwise but when we drop, we go around halfway counter clockwise as if it was a dogleg. There is approximately 125-150 ft between the island and land at the shortest point. Here is how we approach the island. For the record, I enlarged the 55m and gate buoys for clarity. If you're dead set on an island, maybe this will make everyone happy. http://i1134.photobucket.com/albums/m607/jfw432/Random/Capture.jpg

[LeonL]

Islands are only useful if the lake is short. If you have a nice long lake, they're unnecessary. Our lake has turn islands and is 2050'. One thing they do -- shows you who can handle a boat and who can't.

[RLW]

In response to the comment above about Dave's Pond in Edinboro, it is a great place to ski. However, one of the islands was unfortunately placed in the wrong location when the lake was dug. As a result, only one island is used. Don't use satellite photos of Dave's to guide you. You are better off looking at Santan above which looks ideal to me. I ski routinely at a different site with turn islands on both ends. They are rocked around the perimeter and don't require too much maintenance. I would never build a lake from scratch without appropriately placed islands on both sides.

[Taelan28]

I like my ski lakes like i like my women: low maintenance. ~~~best piece of advice my dad ever gave me.

[eleeski]

@LeonL My original lake was short, 2100' to the end of the doglegs - 1800' straight line distance. Plenty of setup time, no rollers and a straightforward drive. How would an island have helped?

 

@RLW Consider doglegs instead of islands.

 

Eric

 

Multiple lake builder, no turn islands.

[LeonL]

@eleeski, If you have no rollers,islands would not have helped.

[Skoot1123]

@eleeski - I suppose people have differing opinions on how much setup time you need. For us, we need some additional time for our boat to get up to speed. With a large island you can do that. Straight into the course from a short setup wouldn't let us get that done. There are other reason's for the island as well, we plan to use it as a place to relax and hang out. We have a HUGE oak tree on it. It will no doubt be lots of fun for my daughter and the "one on the way" to play on when they are older.

 

I certainly appreciate your concern and cause for not wanting an island on a lake. You have spoken from experience.

 

[eleeski]

@Skoot1123 Preserving a beautiful tree is worth the hinderance to skiing. For your appreciation that tree, an island is appropriate. Lose the island at the other end so at least one double up is possible.

 

@LeonL No islands = no rollers. One skier simulated islands there, the rest of us went straight in. It worked either way. The lack of islands brought in extra members in the barefooters and trickers.

 

Eric