Nate Smith gate at the Masters - you be the judge

[Horton]

[PatM]

He's out. Its not even close.

[Skihack]

I hate to say it, but he missed the gate. I am a big fan of Nate's. I watch him ski every chance I can. He is in my opinion the most technical and smoothest skier out there. On the Camera 04 angle, it doesn't even look to be that close. I really hate it for him. If I remember correctly that's two big tourneys this year in which he missed his gates. One thing for sure, if he makes his gates, he is tough to beat.

[Marco]

If you pause it right when his ski passes the buoy, in the bottom right video you can clearly see the buoy on the inside of the ski. Agree with @Pat_M. Missed gate

 

Edit: Meant to say bottom right video, not left. I made the change.

[Edbrazil]

Can't say that I'm all that impressed with the video. Camera 1 in the upper left is the one that should be definitive. All I can see there is a bunch of spray, and I don't see a red buoy at all, although maybe the actual on-site view is better. Camera 2 looks like the gatecam on the other end, and Camera 3 is the centerline video cam. Camera 4 in the lower right, which is the boat cam, does apparently show a miss, and it is unusual for the boat cam to be that clear. In any case, you need to go frame by frame. And, one more reason to get rid of the gate cams, gate judging, and do something else, as is covered by other discussions here.

[ripa38]

This access to information and this type of thread is what makes BOS cool.

He is out.

[schroed]

I agree, missed gate. I also agree that the gate cam sucks and that we should just get rid of those. As discussed, I think we should have a boat cam and the judges and then just give the skier the benefit of the doubt. In other words, if it's close, give it to the skier. If he clearly missed it, then he gets a zero. The lower right cam shows a clear miss in my opinion.

[bishop8950]

@Horton, kudos to getting your hands on the video and posting it. I heard the call was made by the boat camera and that sounded sketchy, but agree based on the available video I would have used the boat video and have zeroed the gate. @ShaneH and others have said, kid needs to work on his gate!

[Chef23]

Using the camera in the bottom right corner I think he definitely missed it. I had to look at it about 6 times to be sure.

[Mike]

Yep at 0:05 freeze it.

[rayn]

With the available footage, it is clear he missed it. Too bad he was skiing great, but the rules are the rules.

[aswinter05]

Out like a fat kid in dodge ball

[Waternut]

I'm thinking he clipped the back side of the ball but I say it's extremely close and could actually be legitimately in. I don't see anything in the top video but if you look at the bottom two videos, you cannot see the ball from either the front or the back indicating he ran over it and sunk it. Using this information, I say that we stick to what everyone has been saying in countless threads...when it's too difficult to call, the benefit of the doubt goes to the skier.

[aswinter05]

Freeze Frame

[aswinter05]

Larger

[gjohnson]

I agree with @Edbrazil The way gates are called needs to be changed. The pulling of skiers gates is happening far to often. That said, I'm not sure what the answer is.

[Horton]

Go between them

[Texas6]

Definitely a miss - bummer for Nate

[Than_Bogan]

Clear miss. But I would have been stunned if it hadn't been. Nobody wants to pull gates.

[disland]

At least we all get to see it. Cant say the same for the mysterious never seen end course video when Jaimie B. world record was denied

[MattP]

@disland I think that video will be lost forever unfortunately.

[klindy]

A couple interesting observations - First, as @Edbrazil said, camera 1 should have been definite. If you watch the video (running) you can see that the camera is bobbing all over the place. The fact that you can't see the gate ball is a product of the short line (-41). Looking at camera 3 (boat path) you can see the buoy appear well outside of the expected buoy line, assuming the pre-gates are a close approximate. It's even harder to tell but you can see the buoy and the ski in the same frame.

 

The point is at -41 the right hand gate ball ican be significantly displaced and submerged by the boat until Iit appears) the skier is about on top of it. Clearly the buoy is hidden from the skier at least while the boat is traveling through the gate for everyone but at this line length the wake characteristics and timing makes the timing much more difficult.

 

In camera 1 (gate camera) you can catch a glimpse of the left hand buoy near the end of the video. It would have been nice if the video was a few frames longer to see where/when the right hand gate ball reappears.

[mwetskier]

how is the buoy being hidden from the skier a factor? do you think nate smith could have altered his path at the last micro second? i think his path was pretty well determined and unchangable by the time he hit the first white water

[danbirch]

The 4th gate cam shows that his ski was IN THE AIR as he went over the ball. Of course you will see the ball BEHIND the ski (or BELOW it). That angle is not a good angle to judge this call. The other cameras's further prove that this rule can't be fairly judged, as you CAN'T EVEN SEE the ball in the other video's....And THESE are the TAPES used to pull his victory away from him?

[klindy]

No I dont believe he could have (or should have) changed his path. My point was more about how the gates are judged and the added degree of difficulty as the rope gets shorter. And hitting a moving target which is pushed well outside its expected position by the boat is especially tough.

[MickeyThompson]

I'm sure you guys are correct but I don't understand how you can miss a gate buoy and completely push it under water without going directly over it. Remember he is going down the lake not just across.

[aswinter05]

@MickeyThompson , good point. The buoy does appear to be pushed underwater or perhaps just lost in the spray.

 

However, according to @ToddL 's post, a gate buoy that is "sunk" is a missed gate. Possibly the judges saw the same thing and still made the right call.

[Waternut]

I'm with @mickeythompson. The freeze frame looks like he's about to slam into it to me and not behind it. The ski is slipping down course and not actually traveling in a straight line relative to the ski's angle.

 

What actually prompted this scrutiny in the first place and was his pass thrown out in the ATL pro am?

[bdougherty]

If this were the Super Bowl (The Masters is arguably the Super Bowl of skiing) and a call was changed or made that determined the winner with this quality of video Congress would intervene. Calling the gates at the pro level is crazy difficult. You have extreme skier speed and buoy movement plus boat turbulence, if the technology is not there or is not affordable so that the rules can be enforced fairly then the rule needs to change. It is a shame that the tournament ended the way it did. Very exciting and then totally anticlimactic. It was definitely a black eye for the sport.

[webbdawg99]

@Waternut. The scrutiny came bc it took over an hour for it to be announced that he'd missed his gates. However, Tadd clarified on another thread that the delay was bc the wakeboarding event had begun, not bc it took the judges that long to decide. They decided to delay the announcement until after the wakeboarding. It's delay was interpreted as indecision about Nate's gates. None of his gates ever came into question during the Pro Am.....at least that I'm aware of.

[Bruce_Butterfield]

Wow. I'm a senior judge and have seen my share of close gates. The video is absolutely crap to judge from. In the top left frame, I could not see the right hand gate ball – ever. You have to use a lot of imagination to claim you can see the gate ball at all. IMO, the top left frame (as its displayed here) is unusable and could not be used to make the call. I hope the judges on site had higher resolution video and could actually see the gate ball.

 

 

The bottom right frame, the ski is right next to the gate buoy, but you have to really magnify to see that he is on the outside (a typical problem with boat judge/camera viewpoint).

 

 

Again, the problem is not the skier going between the gates or not – its how it is judged. If the judges cannot immediately make a good/no-good call, how we score the gates needs to change. I favor using the gates as reference only and not part of the score.

[ToddL]

If you pause and advance a frame at a time looking only at the bottom LEFT camera, you can see the gate ball disappear behind the ski, too. This is the end course video. It is not typically used in gate judging. However, it also confirms the ski's path was outside the gates. It's a miss.

[jipster43]

Nate's ski travells 20 inches downcourse between each frame of video. In my miserable estimation that kind of discrepancy renders all of this video useless. Even the above freeze frame.

[ForrestGump]

Every gate I've ever had pulled, not only did I deserve to have it pulled..... but I KNEW I missed.

[MarcusBrown]

I have an idea....lets continue to use little spherical shaped (and dangerous during ski contact, I might add) course markers for another 20 years....and force ourselves to have to increase technological requirements for tournaments until no one is left in the sport but die hards who will wait around for 15 min to get an instant replay ruling during the finals of the biggest event of the year. And lets continue to use them why? Oh, cuz that's how its been done for decades...

 

Good for Goode to come up with something safer for turn markers.....but I think we are still missing the point.

 

I agree with @schroed, bottom right boat view is the only one worth anything in this case. How sweet would it be if we could eliminate all cameras, except for the boat cam. And all requirements for extra judges, except for the one in the boat. Develop new markers that have very little mass and are taller.... more closely resembling slalom gates on snow instead of steel channel markers on public lakes. Replace Gates and turn buoys with these new markers.....if the skier is too early on a gate or too narrow at a turn, the tip catches the marker (remember, very light marker, so you don't end your career when you tag one) and the boat judge can clearly see the result, without doubt.

 

Am I missing something??.....

 

Oh yeah, did Nate miss that gate? Not certain one way or another. He was really close...as per the rule book, he technically could have been deemed ok. That end of Robin Lake has got me in the past....twice... Benefit of the doubt to the skier? Maybe....but again, why is there so much left to judgement. Lets change a few things, spruce up the course, and eliminate this issue from ever happening again.

[gjohnson]

Bravo @MarcusBrown ! So let me get this straight, you'd like to see a system that's safer on the skier, requires less people to judge, and more accurate? With this kind of crazy talk, I'm certain your next post will be trumpeting how the world is round.

 

In a nutshell, what he said!!

[Mike]

How about we just hear from Nate if he missed?...

Soo many awesome hero's out there rippin it up including Marcus but @ShaneH said it already he knew when he missed. Archaic round balls as @Marcus says we probably could all agree with especially if you have been injured by hitting one head on and OTF'ed. But until we change that at a higher level this conversation was about Nate missing his gate.

[gregy]

@marcusbrown that makes too much sense. Seriously though everything you said would be easily doable. It's time for change!

[danbirch]

I thought I read that Nate said when he saw the videos, he felt they looked good, unlike the judges call.

[ToddL]

Neon swim noodles with reflective tape at the top, floated with 12 inches above the surface...?

[boarditup]

Marcus is dead on right. My marker idea is like a patch of grass thin enough to not grab a ski (think of a kush ball with rubber band spines, but a bit thicker spines to hold air). Requiring all of the judges and technology definately scratches the common slalomer OCD itch, but does nothing to preserve the sport for future skiers.

 

Keep the cost down, keep the requirements basic, and we will survive. As for cheaters, the truth always comes out. A "win" based on a lie is never a true win.

[thager]

I don't think one can say that anyone is trying to cheat here. It's just a very small window to hit!

I understand the idea though.

[Skoot1123]

@toddl - I believe they tried swim noodles in Accapulco but found out how dangerous there were when a fin and wing tried to go through it......completely stopped the ski. Others may be able to vouch for that?

[Ed_Obermeier]

That's the issue @Skoot1123- what are you going to use rather than an inflatable buoy that would be safer? To my knowledge pretty much everything currently available that might work has been tried and to date nothing better/safer has been found. "...New markers that have very little mass and are taller, more closely resembling slalom gates on snow instead of steel channel markers on public lakes..." is a nice idea in theory but FROM A SAFETY PERSPECTIVE is undoable in the real world with currently available tech. Fun to talk about but until some breakthrough design comes around it's all just theory.

[Skoot1123]

@ed - just sent you a message.

[ctsmith]

Motion detector technology? Heck, its been turning on security lights for 30 years. Doubt there's a way to apply it, especially floating in the water.

[Wish]

Looks like a miss to me. Lower left cam. Interesting about what the boat does to gate in displacement and covering it with wash and spray at -41. That would be tough to see. Learned something new. @ToddL heard from someone who tried this that little bits of foam stuck to the fin makes bad things happen and guessing if the ski goes to the inside the skier won't stop and the little bits will bite. Was thinking at night you could use a lazer light from under water pointed up. May look like what MB said..snow ski slalom poles. No idea if that would work consider light displacement in water but how cool would that look if it did. .

[thompjs]

The gate cam was not mounted high enough. I've found getting the camera around 20ft off the water for most sites will allow you to look down over the spray.

[jwroblew]

even if you found a safer / taller marker, what do you do about the displacement caused by the boat. In this example it kind of looks like a miss, but could't the buoy have been displaced by the boat causing it to look like a miss, maybe if the buoy was in it's "original" position it would have been viewed as a make. Seems to me there should be some technology like GPS or survey equipment that could be used as the actual call of a miss or make instead of a floating ball that can get displaced, use the ball as a reference point for the skier.

[jwroblew]

also why is it at .05 seconds Nate in camera 1 and 3 is already in the white wash off the second wake but in view 4 he is just getting to the right hand gate ball. Makes me think that maybe we didn't land on the moon...