Baller Brewski Posted October 12, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted October 12, 2013 @ToddL Thanks, Great pix. That red come really close. I will trim up the SL template 1/4" so it sits more in the middle instead of one side or diagonally. Let me know also on the USG. I had 2 templates on it so it should be closer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller ToddL Posted October 12, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 12, 2013 @Brewski - only do 1/8" at most... Under tension, there is not that much overlap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mwetskier Posted October 12, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 12, 2013 the handle wont be under tension when that soft fabric funells your hand and arm into the gap during a fall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted October 12, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted October 12, 2013 It will not work like a funnel it is really designed to keep your head out but holds it weight like leather enough to keep hands, arms and skis out also and unlike plastic rigid and semi rigid products it should prevent not increase the possible risk of injuries to skier and skis from impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator1 Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Gatorguard 2. GG1 skied fine but corkscrewed when it drug through the water. Which as its my handle was pretty much it's fate in life. This ones got some nifty thumb clearance for the down hand so the center rib doesn't bug me. And it won't funnel so @mwetskier can sleep nights. @brewski, we should make one with a carbon rib and your pleather for the wings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted October 13, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted October 13, 2013 @gator1 Wow that thing is wild. What happens when it slingshots into the ski or air or hits anything? Zip ties alone could do some damage.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator1 Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Made out of soft flexible plastic. But I want to make one out of your stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jipster43 Posted October 13, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 13, 2013 Thank god you two work for good and not evil! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted October 13, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted October 13, 2013 Well there is a person who owns a patent google.com.mx/patents/US7959481 on a product like mine, saying I "copied" their patent. (which we all can tell from this forum that I was not copying any design) anyhow until my patent attorney get a noose on this I will no longer make the ones in a triangle so @gator1 ball is in your court let me know what materials I can send you to do testing with.....obviously there has to be a better product than hard plastic. I am good friends with a manufacturer which has a prototype that the patent owner says "did not infringe on the patent" and try to work up a new model but for now these are no longer available......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller SkiJay Posted October 13, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 13, 2013 @Brewski I'm REALLY sorry to hear that your noose-eliminators have hit this legal pothole, but it just so happens that your design is the perfect size shape and material for me to use in a Halloween costume I'm working on. If I send you the measurements, can you send me one exactly like this? For the record, I'm specifically asking you to sell me this NOT as a "noose-eliminator" ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator1 Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Well, the poor guy probably spent $6k or more to get the patent so I sure don't hold it against him for trying to protect it. The law doesn't care if you "copied" his design, or came up with it independently. Although being accused of copying would tend to piss me off more. I found out the original GG1 (fabric sine wave shape) is an exact copy of something Al Locke just started selling. I never heard of it or saw it until I saw it mentioned in Gordon Rathbun's newsletter. Don't know who came up with it first. Its kind of cool that physics tends to drive the same solution. I don't know if Al patented his. Don't care since I'm not selling anything. And I'm not going to patent any of this stuff. As I said, GG1 corkscrews in the water, and on occasion I bumped my bottom hand thumb on the center. And I'm fixated on solving the whole problem (head and arms) with a design that is completely non-intrusive in use. My next iteration will be softer material, either yours if you're game, or some heavy duty rubberized nylon that will be reinforced where it connects to the center of handle so I can get the thumb cut out. And you're right, those big ol zip ties need to go. I need a piece 22" by 12". If it works I'll post the pattern. Let me know @brewski if you want to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted October 13, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted October 13, 2013 @scotchipman I had never had seen one of the TWs~! but saw the ones that US Gear sells and a prototype at Masterline last year. The big hole in the bottom of that thing to get finger in and machined edges being drug through the water towards me in pick up appear to be safety issues. Appears like smaller fingers might go through some of the larger holes also and we teach lots of kid at camp that have tiny fingers.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted October 13, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted October 13, 2013 @gator1 do you want synthetic? It is not stiff at all until the glued or resin sets up. Laminated or do you want to glue it? If you want to laminate it I should cut it 2x as long. Fold long ways or short ways? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator1 Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 @brewski: seems like if I laminate in shape I could get best of both worlds: soft but shaped? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted October 13, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted October 13, 2013 @gator shoot me your address on inbox and I will send you some out...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Brewski Posted October 13, 2013 Author Baller Share Posted October 13, 2013 @gator1 depending on what type of glue or resin you use you can make it have different flex. You could even back it with fiber and use a rubberized glue like Barge to get return spring action but now were getting into more expensive fabrics and more gluing. I am looking into a waterproof sheet adhesive that is flexible you can lay on the fabric and press and pronto it is permanent. They use it building bullet proof and slash proof clothing and well as racing leathers for SuperBike racing. They bond Kevlar and Spectra with the stuff. Which is super hard to laminate together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller oldjeep Posted October 13, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 13, 2013 I think he'll have a hard time claiming patent infringement since his patent repeatedly calls his device " a semi-rigid triangular panel". You might have a hard time making a case that a fabric panel is semi-rigid. https://www.google.com/patents/US7959481?pg=PA9&dq=thomas+wayne+water+ski&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aNtaUp-UIYzI9QS5-IDoDg&ved=0CEAQ6AEwAQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mwetskier Posted October 13, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 13, 2013 he already said his laminated synthetic piece is made stiff enough to keep your arm head and ski out if thats not semi rigid what is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller oldjeep Posted October 13, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 13, 2013 Dunno, looks like a piece of pleather to me. For someone who actually got one of these, how stiff is it and what would you compare the stiffness to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller jipster43 Posted October 13, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 13, 2013 I am lucky enough to have a noose eliminator and it is about as stiff as... well, a piece of pleather. I also have an FM Arm Guard which I have loved, but I am confident that I'll like this new jobber even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted October 13, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted October 13, 2013 If he was that spacific in his patent, that could be a downfall. Kinda hoping it is. To me, market should decide. Just build a better product. It pushes innovation. Look at the sad state of PP and ZO. I know I'm over simplifing and patents have their place. But still like choices in the market place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian_M Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 If there is a patent on this type of product, how does FM get away with selling their handle guard? Is it just the slightly different swooped design that makes the difference? Not having seen the NE in person, does it not allow you to transfer on and off the rope with ease compared to other products out there? Is that not enough of a distinction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BlueSki Posted October 14, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 14, 2013 Well, crap. I was about to drop tracings in the mail. To answer your question @brewski, one is an In Tow 12 inch radius, one is an Accurate 13" straight, and the last a Connelly Prophecy small daiameter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankS Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Dang that really sucks. I was actually planning on buying one. They looked awesome and I especially liked the design of the carbon fiber ones. I think it is pretty obvious that you didn't copy him because you posted your whole design process on this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller oldjeep Posted October 14, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 14, 2013 What surprises me is that a guy who paid for a patent, spends time protecting it doesn't have a website or really any web presence to sell the product. If you search for Thomas Wayne Arm Guard on Google you find a few pictures of it, a few good reviews of it from users and a half dozen threads on various defunct forums where he is going off on people like a lunatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller gregy Posted October 14, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 14, 2013 @franks I was planning on buying one as well, too bad. Brian_m Isn't FM in Canada. Arm Guard is a US patent. I seen were that guy says his friend died or something along those lines and he didn't want it to happen again. Looks like he's more worried about making money. I was afraid this would happen though, I had seen that patent. Depends on how broad or specific his patent is and whether he willing to spend the expense to fight it. They are some difference but same concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator1 Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 @oldjeep: I agree this is a little weird. TW doesnt seem to have much of a marketing presence, meanwhile brewski seemed to have a version of the product people think is cool. If I was TW I'd either start selling brewskis version under my patent, or, if I'm not interested in marketing I'd offer brewski a license for a royalty fee and let him go hog wild marketing it, sit back and collect the royalties. Of course, the volumes are so low, in either case, that the decision is probably based more on pride than money. It is a US patent, and in theory if FMs designs violate the patent TW can take legal action to stop him from selling in the US. But, reality says he's into $10k legal fees or higher to stop FM from selling what? 50 units per year? It's not cheap to sue a foreign company and actually get paid if you win. Problem with the tournament ski biz is the volumes are so low none of the normal patent/business paradigms work. I'm just happy there are any companies left building us boats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted October 15, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 15, 2013 @gator1 - TW would be VERY specific that his laser cut lexan two piece sheet is perfectly engineered for the task. The old TW ShartGTS rants were always epic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator1 Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Ya, like I said, seems to be pride over money. He seemed like a nice enough guy on the phone when he called to counsel me on the overall perfidious nature of the ski industry at the beginning of my gator mod online adventure. I wasn't on the internets when he was flaming so I missed all the fun. But it's pretty easy to get wound up if you spent a bunch of money on a patent and then find out you just pissed your money down the drain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mwetskier Posted October 15, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 15, 2013 the inventor of the arm guard is my brothers best friend since grade school and i got to see first hand all the work and money he put in to testing and refining for a few years before he got his patent and started selling them. there was nothing available on the market before that and the whole safer handle movement came about because of his invention. with the machinery and software and patent costs he told us he may never see a dime of profit. so what i wonder is if you guys looked out your back window and you seen someone stealing your lawnmower would you go back there and stop them out of 'pride and ego' ? or would you go out and stop them because no one gets to take your hard earned property without a fight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller BraceMaker Posted October 15, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 15, 2013 @mwetskier - no question, I support folks who invent/design/patent a product. Of course I personally am of the opinion that @brewski has a product sufficiently different to not violate TW's efforts. And you will see fabric verisons from other distributors. I think TW has come out with a good product - but you shouldn't need to ask folks on an internet forum for a valid email in order to try to order one. Also - iirc he probably purchased the machinery and software for his other endeavors he didn't tool up to make arm guards after designing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted October 15, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted October 15, 2013 That's the problem I eluded to. Patents can limit choice. But I guess could drive innovation. Make it better and just different enough. I like competition in the market place. Touch screen phones and tablets for example all very much the same but different enough. The lawn mower argument is narrow and a poor analogy at best. Now if you said I patented a newer blade and someone made one identical and sold it, then you have an intelligent argument. As for the guy taking my lawn mower. 911 would solve that. In this case where the original designer may have sunk money in, he must have had a plan for getting money out. Looks as though the latter half of that plan may have fallen short. If the idea was for the sake of safety for all and was an investment from that perspective (maybe just make investment back), then welcoming newcomers to manufacture similar products would be in order. Plus anything new to the market is a gamble of money, time, drive and sanity. Play those cards right, get lucky and away ya go no mater what gets in your way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mwetskier Posted October 15, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 15, 2013 @Wish -you mis understood my question so ill use your example instead. someones stealing your lawnmower would you call 911 out of 'pride and ego' or would you call 911 because no one has a right to take your hard earned property without negative consequences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator1 Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 @mwetskier: to stick with your analogy-the law is on my side. If the guy wants my mower bad enough I'd go threaten him with the law then rent him my mower. Make more money when I'm not using it. That's why I think TW ought to license his patent to brewski. If TW won't do that and brewski is willing my only answer is pride got in the way of biz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted October 15, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted October 15, 2013 Still a poor analogy. I may just call out of pride. I own a John Deer (and not the cheap poorly built copy sold at Lowes). Don't think I'd care as much if it was a crappy Murry lawn mower. :) back on topic. @brewski. I noticed that there are so many good looking colors and tectures (the selection is truly amazing), that if someone wanted to use them as a wall hangings, could one be ordered? I probably already know the answer but thought I'd throw it out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator1 Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 @wish seems like a pretty good analogy to me. TW paid for something somebody else is trying to use without his permission. Just because the patent is "for the sake of safety for all" doesn't mean all get to come take it. Are you suggesting that patent law should be modified in any case where an invention is intended to improve safety? If that is your concept, have you thought through the consequences? Not a lot of incentive to develop stuff for the safety of us skiers if the entire skiing community immediately owns the fruit of your labors. Kind of sounds like socialism. You work hard and I want it. So I get it. And rather you get it in the form of "wall hanging" or "Halloween" costume IF THE DEVICE infringes you are implicit in taking somebody else's property. TW seems like his biz plan isn't working, and may be a liability when it comes to the internets. But, that doesn't make his position invalid just because you want to take his stuff. If you want one that bad buy a square from brewski spend a half hour and make it yourself. That'd be perfectly legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller_ Wish Posted October 15, 2013 Baller_ Share Posted October 15, 2013 Glad TW made one. Glad he's doing what he needs to do to protect his investment. Just not sure these products are that close in similarity. Legal rangling will sort that out. Just tossing out food for discussion. Guess it worked. Funny thing is I don't really want either. Probably will make my own. To me that's more fun. But can you patent a concept of "arm/head protector"? . Can Apple (for discussion sake) patent "any screen you touch that opperates a device" ?? Would that allow them to shut down every electronic device that utilizes that method?? Not sure how lawn mowers fit in. My point was not that it should be available to all just for safety. Was just suggesting if that was a motive of TWs (guessing not) that he could welcoming others to do the same. If its to make a buck then have at it. I get what patents are for. Have looked into them for products I've wanted to create for my business. But in the end the cost was to much. Similar narrow buying audiance. Was just messing with the wall art comment. I'll just stay out of the fray. Truly hope both succeed. More choices and better designs ultimately will be the results if that happens. Great for the consumer. To me thats a good thing and sounds more like capitalism. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller gregy Posted October 15, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 15, 2013 You think if TW went to the trouble of patenting and tooling he would at least make some simple website or even just a listing under handles/ropes on ski-it-again, how hard is that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator1 Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 @gregy ya I agree. Weird deal he'll go to the trouble of sending lawyer letters to brewski but doesn't seem all that interested in selling product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator1 Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 @mwetskier as TW surrogate BOS baller do you have any insight into his plan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller aussiemc Posted October 15, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 15, 2013 I emailed TW early September (on the email address posted on this forum) asking to buy 4-6 handle guards. Still no reply to date. Is selling them high on his priorities? or just stopping other skiers from being safe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller A_B Posted October 15, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 15, 2013 I was wondering when TW would pop up in this. I have one of his designs, but switched to a USG handle this year, so it doesn't fit right. I suppose if you modified how you attach your cover to the handle, it might be different enough, if the material composition isn't enough by itself. He promotes the Lexan material heavily, and it could really be a lot of different plastics or whatever, as you have proven. USG sells one that slips over the yoke, so double-sided. Maybe have a snap on deal with the synthetic material, who knows what the attorneys will come up with. The good in all of this is that a lot more skiers are using some type of guard, and for whatever reason, he wasn't marketing his, or it wasn't attractive to the market. If TW can't see that, then bah humbug.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Horton Posted October 15, 2013 Administrators Share Posted October 15, 2013 @OB folks that endlessly make drama are not who I built this site for. Unmoderated sites fail. No one gets banned without a number of strikes. FYI TW has always been civil to me personally. It is not personal. Goode ★ HO Syndicate ★ KD Skis ★ MasterCraft ★ PerfSki Radar ★ Reflex ★ S Lines ★ Stokes ★ Baller Video Coaching System Drop a dime in the can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller mwetskier Posted October 15, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 15, 2013 @gator1 -hes my brother friend who knows him better than i do so ill just ask whats up and see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Drago Posted October 16, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 16, 2013 Let him post, watch the Ballers fade away.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Bulldog Posted October 16, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 16, 2013 It was like watching a train wreck...can't just look away and not read the crazy posts. "Do Better..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller Chef23 Posted October 16, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 16, 2013 I have purchased Arm Guards from TW and he was great to me. That said the Arm Guard doesn't seem to be a priority for him. I totally support TW's right to defend the patent. That said if he doesn't want to actively market the Arm Guard it would be nice to see someone that does want to market a product be able to do it. Hopefully TW is talking with @brewski about allowing him to market his product if he isn't going to actively market the Arm Guard. It was easy to work with TW to get him to customize your Arm Guard all you had to do was give him the inside width at the top of the handle and the length of the triangle when it was stretched and the ones I ordered fit perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supporting Member Than_Bogan Posted October 16, 2013 Supporting Member Share Posted October 16, 2013 Ditto on @Chef23. I wasn't able to use his product effectively, but TW tried his best to help me. And I sincerely hope that @brewski is presently discussing licensing and/or tweaking his offering for non-infringement. TW seems to be a quite legitimate inventor in this space, and has legitimate ownership of the invention. (I re-emphasize that it doesn't matter if someone independently invents or copies; either way the first inventor [in the future first to file -- lame!] owns the invention.) This is a pretty standard scenario, and every patent lawyer on earth should be pretty well versed in what to do next. I strongly suspect a resolution will be arrived at, and probably relatively quickly. @brewski Let us know when you are ready to sell something again. There is clear demand. I appreciate your efforts!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller A_B Posted October 16, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 16, 2013 I think @brewski came up with a cool material to use, so has added some appeal to skiers that would not have used a guard prior to his offering and generated some market demand previously not there. This is a good thing. Ditto comments on TW taking care in his product and instructions on what to send him. He just sort of disappeared with it though, no website, no email posted, or phone, and hard to know his product even exists, if you weren't involved in the discussions on the web when we all were calling for something.. Re: BOS, he just had a rare knack of responding that set himself up as Sheldon talking to Penny, and we don't have a lot of Penny's out here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baller AKShortline Posted October 17, 2013 Baller Share Posted October 17, 2013 TW hopes to get the Arm Guard website up and running over the winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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