Growing skiing

[scoke]

Very interesting post.

 

"Be the change in the world you want to see"

@ballsohard

How many diversity based people have YOU taken to the lake?

 

How many are your ski partners and if not, what are you doing about it?

[6balls]

Tuff stuff. I have 9 sibs, tons of cousins, we all took a July lake vaca since the dawn of time. Everyone skied that week, my Dad had "the coolest boat"--metal flake outboards. We skied the river each summer whenever able on the early morning weekends.

Somehow we started getting waterski mag when I was a kid (the 10th and last kid). I learned to barefoot, I talked Dad into a portable for July vaca. I joined a college ski team and was quickly thru 28 off...and conned my bro @razorskier1 to start skiing buoys--he began late only a few years left in M2.

Of all my sibs, of all my cousins, of all of my sibs kids...Jim and I skied tourneys, and later @razorross3 joined us.

No one else bought a boat...and of my kids and Jim's kids only Mitch runs buoys despite our kids growing up on public lakes with piles of ski knowledge and examples in their fathers.

Only in their mid to late 30's do now 3 of my nephews pick up skiing--2 have boats, one does not, 2 of them are now beginner buoy addicts.

 

Long post...my point is a bunch of kids above grew up on water vacations, or lived on lakes, or had parents who skied...and didn't pick it up. It's a hard sport to be good at, it's a hard sport to afford, and at the competitive level it does tend to attract type A/OCD people or it's harder to fit in. Like it or not, others see us type A/OCD people sometimes as not so much fun, too intense, not relaxed, overly into detail/performance. Add to that barriers to entry and it's just tough to grow what is a niche sport.

 

I play a bunch of tennis. There are courts almost anywhere in any community. My cost is some balls and a racket, some shoes. It's kind of a niche sport, too, but barriers are nil.

[ALPJr]

@hbfs agreed about the cost, and with @Mateo_Vargas about the seeds. I spent two seasons skiing at Berkeley while going to college and working for just enough peanuts to pay the bills and cover my skiing. Great group of people there. Then after moving back east I found places where I could afford a few ski rides a week while getting a career going, starting a family and getting the kids interested for a few years. Overall from my perspective it’s about, how willing and able I am to dedicate my efforts to something (waterskiing). Regarding diversity, that’s up to us and how dedicated we are to offering opportunities and reaching out.

[ReallyGottaSki]

Idk, I don't quite buy the price point thing yet.

I run my 38 year old boat, like I have for the last 25 years, bought it a steaming heap. take care of it and improve slightly it yearly . moved from new jobe honeycomb in 1981, to a new Connelly hp in '95, to a mighty heavily used '06 F1 last season. I hold my own amongst the better skiers about. And enjoy passing on instruction at all levels.

 

I'm into this for like 1500 a year, that's including gas and insurance, for the last 25 years.

For perspective that's like a 4 dollar coffee a day and sometimes a donut.

Instead, have had for decades, and continue to have hours of family enjoyment, personal challenge, and the challenge of resourcefulness.

 

People put their extra money and time into what they want to, or not to.

its Liberty. Ski hard, if you want to.

 

As you know very few endeavors that take intensity, hundreds of hours to become good at, and thousands to master, will appeal to the masses anymore. it may never have. it's more than ever about quick easy dopamine hits followed by leisure and religion of comfort. Only a fraction of the populous is 'intense' enough to wake up early and do stuff as this, and these have to get spread about all the growing disciplines of activities out there. Obsessed is what the lazy call the dedicated.

 

Two anecdotes, some decades ago i showed up at a local enduro club meeting. awkward AF, There was an order of magnitude difference in abilities. perhaps but one spoke to me. people staring at me, talking about me, all the while i was amongst somewhat similarly minded people with similar interests. If available it would have been really easy to project my insecurity onto them and make it about different color or race, but I couldn't, it was all inside. its just a part of growing up, to the next level. pushing though.

 

My local mtn bike club's busybody Karen in leadership recently tried to more than imply we're all malignant based solely on the palate that shows up. that was promptly refuted with vigor, and disgusted we were presumed so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jcamp]

@scuppers Instead of trying to shut the conversation down, how about you just stop clicking on the link?

[swc5150]

This thread has a strange premise to me. Why would anyone care what they perceive the demographic makeup of this sport to be? To me, it seems having somewhat deep pockets is the common denominator. Folks also seem to be worried about growth to maintain product R&D, yet look at the skis and 2 boat models that have been released just in the last 2 years. We've never had it better:)

[Hucklefin]

@ReallyGottaSki yeah people saying you need a 30-50k boat to have fun skiing is absolutely ridiculous. I run a 35 yo boat as well and have made a bunch of skiing friends in the area over the last summer. I definitely felt like a total outsider when we started showing up to ski, too but I didn't witness any of the bad gate keeping that I was expecting.

[ForrestGump]

@swc5150 That was my thought as well. It's an odd premise to not want to grow skiing in general, but instead to grow skiing by seemingly opening it to more diverse people. Which in the grand scheme of things I find at odds with what I have seen over the last 25 years of being associated with this sport. Because not one place have I ever been during that time where it was anything but people who enjoy skiing, be they white, black, green brown or little martians, enjoying each others company and doing what we love.

[MDB1056]

IMO Growing Skiing and Diversity are two completely different topics.

[jcamp]

Back in the early 2000s I worked with Orange County Parks and Recreation (Orlando) to organize a learn to ski day for kids who went to a boys and girls club in one of the worst parts of town. Ben Favret and Lisa St. John were nice enough to volunteer their time, and even boats, if I recall.

 

Ben worked with this little 9-year-old-ish kid who, the first time he'd ever been in a boat, shimmed out onto the boom (while the boat was under speed) and started barefooting. There is no doubt that the talent level in skiing would be way higher if we were able to draw in a more diverse crowd.

[Than_Bogan]

Note sure of the basis for disagreeing with jcamp (though could be a misclick). If you start from strictly more people, then you'll find more naturals. (Ok, technically you're only guaranteed to find at least as many, but "more" would be far more likely.)

 

Throughout my life, I've generally been in the majority-or-historically-privileged category in just about everything, so feel free to laugh at my pathetic attempt to empathize, but I *did* have one very interesting experience in college where I worked with a large team that was 100% women -- except me. There was never one second that any of them were mean to me or tried to exclude me from anything. And yet I was always felt out of place, as conversations inevitably went to places where I just felt I had nothing to add.

 

My observations is: There's a surprisingly large difference between "not trying to exclude" compared to "actively trying to include."

 

All that said, do I plan to do anything to grow the sport or make it more inclusive? Probably not. It serves my needs as is, and I have much more ability to grow the sport of pole vaulting anyhow!

[DW]

@Than_Bogan - “interesting college experience working with a large team of women“. Are you simply trying to make every guy on this forum jealous??? I’ll bet you weren’t interested in making that more inclusive, LOL!!!

[Than_Bogan]

@DW Hah! Most of them were at least 10 years older than I was, which seems like a ton when that is half your life!

[kurtis500]

Wheres the OP been? Starts a thread like this then takes off?

 

Looks more like trolling

[ballsohard]

I can assure you I'm not trolling. I have mono and haven't been doing much posting anywhere in the last while. @kurtis500

[tjs1295]

I participate in at least three "dying" sports. Water skiing, cross country skiing, and hunting. These threads always interest me, and frustrate me at the same time. My question always is why does the sport need to constantly grow? For hunting the message is always pretty obvious, it's to keep the gear manufacturers making money. Cross country skiing is more complicated. At least this time the OP seems to want to grow the sport because of his love and passion for it. That's a little refreshing. But again, I ask why do all these other people need to water ski?

 

Is it to find a potential world champion?

Is it to keep the boat manufacturers making new ski boats, and equipment? Although based on previous comments, a 1980's era ski boat should be fine in 2050 if you change the oil on time.

Is it to get people outside, and doing something you enjoy?

Keep the family together?

 

The way I look at it, there are a lot of people that seem to be having a great time doing their own thing. I don't know much about electronic gaming competition, but I know they pack stadiums, and some of them make a lot of money. I bet there's a lot of comradery and competition going on there that's similar to the Malibu Open. I wonder if they ask themselves why are people out water skiing, and could one of them really help our gaming team? Just because we love skiing and boating doesn't mean there are people sitting around being miserable just waiting to be enlightened by our hobbies. Most people probably have their own version of boating/skiing that reminds them of their youth or family time together.

 

The other point I don't agree with is that water skiing is cheap. You can do it cheap, but that doesn't mean it really is "cheap". I definitely can't speak about where other people live though. I live in northern Wisconsin where you have public lakes with a boat ramp everywhere you look. My wife and I work in two different hospitals and see people with all different incomes. Between the two of us I can probably count on one hand the number of people who own any sort of ski or wake boat. A decent amount get out on the water in some form, but it's a lot less than you would think. I'll use the $1500/year example from above. If I GAVE most co-workers a brand new Ski Nautique and told them it would cost them $1500 to use for three months (that's our season up here), I would probably have a lot of them say "no thanks", and give it back. Could they come up with the money from some other source? Probably, but it's not that easy. Unfortunately, you can't do this sport by yourself. So, more members of the family better have the passion. Let's say you want to buy a boat for $5000. Can you get a boat loan for what would probably be a 30 year old boat? I don't know, but I do know most of the people around me can't pay cash for that. Most couldn't come up with $500 for a family emergency. I have asked soooo many people to come skiing with me. Almost no one does. But, a lot of the time it's because they're perfectly happy doing their own thing. Maybe I'm the one missing out by water skiing?????

[hbfs]

Owning a boat is expensive. But you don't need to own a boat to water ski. You don't need new gear either.

 

But you do need access to a boat. --> ski clubs or knowing waterskiers

 

For the cost of a club membership, some networking, and some boat gas, you can waterski without owning a boat. Many of us do it.

 

And it costs even less if you're not concerned about course access on private lakes and just want to open water ski on public water. Most people entering the sport don't care about buoys.

 

Coming out of college, I started in the sport with several year old entry-level equipment, a $60 annual club membership (no private lake, just public water), and $20-45 in gas for a 9am-4:30pm all day ski outing. As far as hobbies go, this is really, really manageable. If you throw in boat ownership, of course it becomes more expensive.

 

Even now that I've been spending most of my water time on private water, my annual cost to maintain this hobby without gear upgrade cost is significantly lower than my annual cost to snow ski an equal amount of days.

[tjs1295]

Good points @hbfs, and even better opportunities for you. I wonder if those club options are a geographic thing? I'm unaware of many club opportunities like you describe that exist in Wisconsin, but I could be wrong. Others can feel free to correct me on that. And yes, there's a big world outside of Wisconsin, so it might be way more common than I realize. That would be great if it is common. That would be the way to grow the sport. Especially the public lake club option.

 

I was with you regarding the costs of water skiing right up until the point where you compared it to snow skiing. I'm assuming downhill? It seems like you have at least a little bit of discretionary income. I'm pretty sure most of us on this forum have one or more other hobbies outside of water skiing that costs a decent amount of money. Just like being slalom skiers, I don't think we represent the majority of individuals out there.

 

Once again, I will only use my community as an example. To be clear, I will no longer say that water skiing is expensive. I'm either wrong, or really in the minority by thinking that. How about I just say life is expensive? My wife and I both work with a lot of families that are in their 20's - 40's. They often bring up financial issues they are dealing with. None of the conversations are about which hobby they should allocate funds to. For most of them, money towards water sports would literally be taking food off the table, clothes off their backs, or even less savings towards retirement/education (if they're saving anything at all to begin with).

 

I can give you many examples, but here's one to keep my post as short as possible. Husband, wife, son, daughter. Around 30 years old, both parents work. I work with the wife. She saves a little bit out of every paycheck so that once a year the four of them can spend one night and two days at a local ski area. Remember, this is Wisconsin downhill skiing. It's not Aspen or Deer Valley. Their summer family thing is little league baseball. They have a blast being involved with that. I know everyone lives in different areas, but I believe that family situation is a better representation of families nationwide than at least what my family is like. Meaning, we own a boat, and a house on a lake. Even being surrounded by lakes we're FAR from normal. Locals don't live on the lakes. The lake homes are owned by people from Chicago, Minneapolis, Madison, Milwaukee. It's not even normal for people around here to own any kind of boat.

 

I might be way out of touch with the real world, but I think I have a good feeling for what it's like around here. And that feeling is most families don't have a pot to pi$$ in. My community can't be that different from the rest of the country, can it? Some of you well traveled folks should chime in to educate me.

[cmcoutur]

@tjs1295 My husband is a nordic skier originally from outside Wausau and I know there was recently a Faster Skier article titled "Why is US Nordic Skiing so White". My other big hobby is horseback riding and over this last summer I've seen a number of publications discussing diversity and inclusion there too. I don't think it's unique to water skiing.

 

In both cases, I've seen people break it down into culture, economics, and location. For the most part, these sports just aren't something you stumble into and, even if you do, there are barriers to committing. Not to say they cannot be overcome - it just takes someone with a real interest to follow through on that.

 

 

[hbfs]

@tjs1295 you are probably more in touch with the real world than most of us due to your work, and you don't need to discount that at all. My partner works with youth in an area with many low-income immigrant families, so I am aware that I and many of us are in a bubble. In fact, my younger years growing up was in a low-income, immigrant family, and I am aware that my life now is quite a lot different.

 

Waterskiing does require discretionary income, and I don't think that it is inexpensive. The point I was trying to get across is that if you are able to join the sport without owning a boat, requiring private water access, or constantly updating gear, the hobby isn't as expensive as it's often made out to be here on these forums. I often see cost as the explainer for why more people don't join this sport. But I think that at a basic level, if you have a small but limited amount of discretionary income, you can get into this hobby without a large upkeep cost, provided that you can access a boat and don't need the newest gear. You can get into this hobby for less than the cost of a car hobbyist buying a $500 beater and trying to keep it running.

 

I know that if I needed to own a boat in order to waterski, this wouldn't be a financially viable hobby for me for the near future. But I am also lucky to live in a metropolitan area where boat access isn't too difficult due to clubs and the right networking. You make a good point that depending on where you live, not everyone has access to ski clubs. But I think that ties into one of the points I have been trying to make. If you have discretionary income and are able to access a ski club or waterski community (which is not always easy as you point out, and I think more difficult for the diverse demographics brought up in the original post), cost isn't the key limiting factor.

[tjs1295]

@cmcoutur I remember reading that Faster Skier article. I can't believe your husband left the area!! :D Unless he moved to an even better nordic ski area? I still ski a lot at 9 mile.

 

@hbfs You made some great points, and I completely understand. I really like the public lake club idea. Not sure if the lawyers would. It would have come in handy from 2005 until 2014 when I had the house on the lake, but refused to spend more money on a boat. Part of that was due to our old law of needing a spotter. I sure wanted to ski, but had very few opportunities.

 

Anyway, since 2014 I have had dozens of people learn to ski, or ski for the first time in years behind my boat. Not one of them got the bug to pursue it any further. It's possible they will down the road when they get older. Who knows? Maybe there's a certain genetic makeup we need to be looking for instead of just exposing people to the sport?

[cmcoutur]

@tjs1295 I wish I could say he had - we were in Houghton/Tech Trails for a while and loved it, but now we have a 2.5k manmade loop when it is cold enough. You're lucky with 9 mile. It's a nice visit after trying to train for a birkie/korte on our loop downstate!

[tjs1295]

@cmcoutur NOTHING is better than the Houghton area!!! Hands down my favorite place to ski. Especially when you want to cross country ski in October/November or April. The snow they get is unreal for an area that isn't in the mountains. Thank you Lake Superior. I better stop now since I'm waaaaaaaaay off topic.

[Wish]

Maybe the sport needs more commercials like this. I mean, it’s a water skiing tiger...that’s pretty diverse.

 

[Johnseed]

Not just a water skiing tiger but a Slalom Skiing tiger.

[dbaconaz]

 

We always talk about growing the sport of water skiing, and introducing new enthusiasts to the sport. Making your fist full pass in slalom course is amazing or landing and skiing away your first jump is something you will always remember! But why do we make is so hard on ourself to let the sport grow? Why do only those who can afford to live on private lake get that experience?

 

I live in Phoenix, AZ where you have beautiful year round skiing weather! We only have a few accessible public lakes that are accessible for daily usage, but also have 6 private ski lakes. As many people on public lakes know it’s almost impossible to get the counties to agree to place a temporary ski course let alone a jump ramp. Learning to ski on open water is where its at however to grow the sport you will want to introduce them to a course! Thats when you real “bug” sets it teeth!

 

But what about bring those of us who are not able to buy a million dollar home on a private lake, or buy a lot for thousands of dollars with a monthly HOA fee that I can’t afford only to have access to those ski courses and jump ramps? Myself like so many others love to ski the course and even hit the ramp and have been lucky in my life to work at ski schools to have all this availability. However here is sit today with no options to get a pull through a course! Every lake in this city you must own property to be able to ski. Sure I can drive to California and pay per pass at a few lakes, but that is only something that can happen a few times a year.

 

I understand that every part of the country is different with more or less access to lakes. Washington has many lakes and you are able to get “memberships” for reasonable cost to access that slalom course or jump ramp. I understand that those who are able to buy a million dollar home don’t want random people skiing on their lake! Here in Phoenix they are doing everything they can to not grow the sport! Keeping people away from growing the sport. Why is it so difficult to run a pay per pass or membership options that will not break the bank!

 

I love the sport of waterskiing and all aspects of it! Hitting the lake doing some wake boarding and surfing is always fun! It’s accessible to anyone, but for those of us that want to push our skiing and grow the sport that comes with the challenge of the course! How can we as a community come together to grow the sport?

[Johnseed]

Maybe advocacy for courses on public waters would help. We have a course on our local public lake but I understand that we are very fortunate. I thought USA waterski used to have such a thing but I'm not sure. Government bureaucrats stink sometimes.

[BraceMaker]

@Johnseed exactly - some parts of this country with the best public water access have the worst public water permitting issues.

 

@tjs1295 the cross country disciplines actually do compare well with water skiing or more watersports and snowsports.

 

To grow tournament skiing you must grow the base, first getting people skiing then getting more of them into the course. I would compare it to growing biathlon more so than cross country skiing. You need to get that base of people out in the woods who then move onto groomed courses who then pursue biathlon. Not put out advertisement for people to show up to your club.

[The_MS]

How much does water cost in the desert? Trying to grow water skiing in AZ is like trying to grow downhill skiing in Florida. Growing skiing in places like MN, WI and other lake filled states are more of an achievable goal.

[ballsohard]

How much does IPA cost in the desert? @The_MS

[The_MS]

@ballsohard good water makes good beer.

[kurtis500]

Uh, no. Growing waterskiing in AZ is tough for tournament style skiing only. If you do ski racing/enduro or etc. its a perfect place for it. The lakes around Phoenix and the Colorado River (Parker, Havasu) are NOT good for slalom/tournament style skiing. I never see people doing it except at Firebird where I race.

 

Phoenix has more water than most metropolitan areas. In fact, for $85 a year I flood irrigate my yard with 4 inches of water 2 times a month. Thats essentially 8 inches of rain equivelant for my yard only....IN NORTH CENTRAL PHOENIX! Anything can grow there and I have Sycamore trees and etc. It helps that the desert is situated in a valley below multiple mountain ranges and large rivers.

 

To grow the sport people need to get skiers on the local slalom lakes. They are in town and the closest lakes to ski on. Somebody needs to step up and partner with a high school or etc. near the lakes to get it going. Phoenix metro has plent of people and year round skiing.

[Jetsetr]

@The_MS Spot on...

Permitting in WI is a nightmare. Portable course MUST be removed by sunset even on a small (85 acre) lake.

[dbaconaz]

@The_MS I agree with @kurtis500, AZ will work for skiing. The lakes are so packed year round! Everyone is surfing or wakeboarding. That is easy to do on any open water. With the local lakes its very tough to get a permit for a slalom course and you must give them exact dates and times. It's not something you can just leave in the water. There are some private lakes with courses however its so expensive to purchase a lot. Thats your only option. Why can't some of the lakes have memberships? I understand Firebird lake does, However the cost is sky high! Helping to grow the sport is being able to bring people into the courses and jump ramps, give them time at the lakes that have those options. Not keep it private to those few who can afford million dollar properties.

[The_MS]

It’s those awful private lake people who don’t care.

[Cordellg]

A good place to start could be in supporting your local collegiate teams. I grew up around lake activities, but had no idea what 3-event was. Got pushed into joining the team as a freshman, and was almost immediately hooked. College teams generally have a boat and skis to provide for the team members, and access to either a public or private lake to ski. When recruiting we always pushed the fact that you didnt need to have any prior waterski experience to be a part of the team. Now that ive graduated and started skiing non-collegiate tournaments, I can tell you that collegiate tournaments are FAR easier to feel included at than non. Just for the fact that you have team members, and a good majority of the skiers are at the same level as yourself. Without collegiate skiing I would have never found waterskiing as a sport, and I think growing those teams is a good place to start growing the sport and making it more inclusive.

[Drago]

@tjs1295 Just because we love skiing and boating doesn't mean there are people sitting around being miserable just waiting to be enlightened by our hobbies. tmp.gif